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what's up saucer heads this is Ryan

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Sprague from the summer in the skies

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podcast and I have an exclusive offer

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common and I'll see you there this is

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somewhere in the skies the brains

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[Music]

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welcome to somewhere in the skies I'm

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your host Ryan spring well I am on the

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road again doing some top-secret

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projects but I did want to bring you in

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episode this week so I decided to pull

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this one out of the archives over at the

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our strange skies podcast hosted by Rob

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her stop person and when Rob

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Kristofferson is on the show you know

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it's gonna be a UFO happy hour but this

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time Rob interviews me all about my book

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what I think about UFOs in general in

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what cases I turn the heart skeptics to

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so sit back crack open a cold beer or a

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glass of wine or grab a coffee no one's

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judging and let's begin this volume of

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UFO happy hour Ryan how you doing buddy

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I'm doing great man hey listen I love

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what you're doing I've been following

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your work ever since you started the

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podcast and it's such an honor pleasure

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to finally be on your show I had you on

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mind a little while ago so yeah full

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circle here so honored pleasure yeah man

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happy to have you on definitely one of

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the first people that I thought about

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when I was gonna do this so I definitely

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appreciate you taking the time to come

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on and and talk for a little bit in the

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interviews that I've heard you doing

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stuff you kind of got into UFO research

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after having a personal experience of

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your own when you were a teenager can

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you talk a little bit about your

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experience and kind of how it affected

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your life because your book really dives

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into the aftermath of the sighting and

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how it affected people right yeah I mean

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I I am a playwright first and foremost I

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lived in New York City for 10 years and

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that was my bag man that was my bread

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and butter writing characters you know

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how they how they live how they breathe

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how they talk how they react and you

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know the aftermath what changes a

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character throughout the the process of

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a play so that's always been the way I

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wanted to go with my UFO research and

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that kind of is how I I got involved

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with this I had my quote unquote or

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Jhin story when I was 12 years old my my

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Peter Parker moment I guess this was up

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in your kind of your neck of the woods

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it was in central New York right on the

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border of New York and Canada I was on a

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nighttime fishing excursion off of a

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dock at a motel I was staying at with my

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parents we were away for the weekend and

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you know it's it's 1995 I've got my

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discman I'm listening to what was it

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dookey by Green Day oh wow yeah I was by

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myself I love doing stuff like that just

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listening to music and either writing

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drawing our fishing as it were that

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night and so I'm just you know I'm

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reeling my line in and I see this

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reflection in the water and it's you

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know kind of kind kind of triangular and

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it's like three white lights I'm like oh

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that looks pretty cool I thought it was

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in the water at first but then I closer

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I looked I realized it was a reflection

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so I naturally look up and there it was

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man I mean it was it was a triangular

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formation three kind of orange white

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lights and this huge red basket ball

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shaped hazy thing in the middle and it's

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just flow in there and there was no

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solid structure not that I could see I

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couldn't see the stars behind whatever

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the formation was but I did not see any

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mechanisms or solid structure but it was

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just like hang in there silently

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and that that really affected me all I

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could hear was kind of it you know like

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the water hitting the dock and I was

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scared I was kind of just frozen there

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and finally I'm able to get you know

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these little squeals out of my

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twelve-year-old voice to my dad he's

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inside the motel watching a Yankees game

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and he's not going to be leaving that

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anytime soon and I'm yelling I'm yelling

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the thing starts coasting over the water

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towards Canada and finally I get my

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dad's attention he comes out and as he's

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coming out to look at the thing it's

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just making its way over the water

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towards Canada

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and it kind of disappeared right at

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where the water met the sky the night

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sky and I don't know if this always kind

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of bothered me I don't know if it just

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disappeared out of sight or if it

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actually submerged into the water but my

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dad he did see the tail end of it he saw

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the two white lights in the back of this

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thing so he tells me it's just a plane

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you know doing his his due diligence as

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a father calming me down but again dude

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like I was 12 years old even I knew you

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know silent no sound of propulsion how

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fast and there how slow I should say

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this thing was moving and how big it was

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it was not any plane I'd ever seen so

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yeah absolutely terrified me I became

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obsessed I had nightmares about it for

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years after that and that's kind of how

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it all began man I started taking out

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books on UFOs cryptids paranormal and

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that's it I was hooked after that and

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it's always kind of interesting when you

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go back and you relive the sighting

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there and in just memory and like I felt

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this emotion I felt that emotion do you

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think that it was just the fact that you

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were seeing the craft or do you think

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the craft was kind of inducing that fear

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because there are people that talk about

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seeing craft like this and they hear

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this hum and then all of a sudden they

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are fearful or whatever so do you think

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it was just you reacting in the moment

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or do you think it might have been

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something else maybe the craft itself a

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little of both I've researched a lot of

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cases like you just mentioned where

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there was physiological effects and

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psychological effects happening at the

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same time for me personally I didn't

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hear a hum but I felt a hum like I felt

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this vibration going from the back of my

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neck down my spine and kind of into my

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stomach again like I don't know if this

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was adrenaline or fear but I was

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definitely scared scared you know I

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ripped my headphones off my discman goes

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flying and just so I could like hear

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what was going on and when I heard

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nothing that's when I was like what the

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hell is going on

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and I I can't tell you man I can't tell

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you if it was making me feel anything

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but it was this weird mixture of fear

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and and calmness all at once I wasn't it

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wasn't you know flight or fright it was

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more of just stay there keep looking at

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it I know you're scared but you have to

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see what this thing does whatever the

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hell it is so there were physiological

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effects whatever that was inside of me

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vibrating but other than that I can't

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really tell you what else I was feeling

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in the moment I just wanted to remember

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it yeah I totally understand because

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there was an experience I had like three

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years ago almost now and like I keep

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going over it again and again in in my

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head and I'm like well why did I react

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the way that I reacted in the moment

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because I had a phone on me and I didn't

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take a picture of it what why didn't I

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want to do that and like I I experienced

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mine with a friend and I gotta try and

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reconnect with him just to get his

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impression of it but yeah it's it's one

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of those baffling things where it's just

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this thing wants you to see it and it's

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kind of inducing emotions in you but

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it's such a baffling phenomenon that it

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does drive people to research this stuff

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so I commend you man I probably would

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have like ran off I mean don't get me

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wrong I wanted to but I'm telling you

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man like something kept me frozen there

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again I don't know maybe just just

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scared but uh but it happened and you

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know I do look back and be like wow what

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could I have done should I have like

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reported it you know we talked to the

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owner of the motel the next day we're

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like hey dude the hell was above your

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book like what's going on but he really

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had nothing to say he's like oh people

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report UFOs here all the time I'm like

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what what are you talking about like and

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but that was really about it

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um and I do regret that but again I was

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12 I wasn't into UFOs yet I didn't know

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about MUFON or you know reporting it to

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the police or the FAA I just I saw it it

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changed my life instant

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li and rest is sort of history and from

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that history comes forth a book

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somewhere in the skies your book begins

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in a bar in the Lower East Side of

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Manhattan and it starts with a bartender

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named Tyler and he starts talking about

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his experience seeing the Phoenix lights

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this is kind of that catalyst moment

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that pushes you in the direction to

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write this thing what was it about that

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encounter with Tyler that really made

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you want to write this book so that was

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that really was a pivotal moment in

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terms of my my my writing aspect of the

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whole UFO research thing I guess I I was

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on my way to do a you know like a mini

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interview with my mentor Peter Robbins

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I'm sure a lot of your listeners know

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that name well but I was nervous man I

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needed some some some whiskey and maybe

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that's kind of I go to a bourbon and

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specific but uh so yeah I stopped in to

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this bar and I don't know if you've ever

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had that that that experience where the

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UFO thing just sort of comes up in

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conversation maybe happenstance maybe

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forced but it's always a debate in your

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head like do I do it I can do I take

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that leap what what's what's gonna come

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of it I mean I've lost a lot of second

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dates you know bringing this something

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in the past god bless my girlfriend now

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she loves it but um but yeah it can be a

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really big icebreaker right whether you

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know on a date or just in regular

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conversation and you know luckily for me

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00:12:26,049 --> 00:12:23,899
it came up kind of kind of naturally I

270
00:12:28,900 --> 00:12:26,059
in the book I kind of explain how it all

271
00:12:32,829 --> 00:12:28,910
went down but Tyler was such a cool dude

272
00:12:35,230 --> 00:12:32,839
he he was so excited to talk about it

273
00:12:37,629 --> 00:12:35,240
and that really that really inspired me

274
00:12:39,999 --> 00:12:37,639
man to sit there in the middle of

275
00:12:42,549 --> 00:12:40,009
Manhattan with a complete stranger and

276
00:12:45,129 --> 00:12:42,559
have an extremely intimate conversation

277
00:12:48,160 --> 00:12:45,139
about the Phoenix lights I interviewed

278
00:12:49,240 --> 00:12:48,170
some witnesses of that event in the past

279
00:12:52,150 --> 00:12:49,250
but not to the

280
00:12:54,850 --> 00:12:52,160
extent and not face-to-face so that was

281
00:12:58,480 --> 00:12:54,860
the moment I think being face-to-face

282
00:13:01,420 --> 00:12:58,490
with a witness seeing how they recalled

283
00:13:03,309 --> 00:13:01,430
an event and when it whenever I did

284
00:13:06,610 --> 00:13:03,319
interview people I I would write down

285
00:13:09,759 --> 00:13:06,620
like how their voice sounded you know

286
00:13:11,619 --> 00:13:09,769
what what what the tone was in their

287
00:13:13,660 --> 00:13:11,629
voice that these were things I learned

288
00:13:15,460 --> 00:13:13,670
and was trained as a playwright like how

289
00:13:17,499 --> 00:13:15,470
do you do those sorts of things so I'm

290
00:13:20,650 --> 00:13:17,509
kind of analyzing him as he's telling me

291
00:13:22,629 --> 00:13:20,660
this and I had no doubt he was telling

292
00:13:25,269 --> 00:13:22,639
me the truth you know I'm no speech

293
00:13:28,059 --> 00:13:25,279
pathologist I know you know human lie

294
00:13:30,369 --> 00:13:28,069
detector but he was sweating he was you

295
00:13:33,069 --> 00:13:30,379
know he was animated telling me about

296
00:13:35,980 --> 00:13:33,079
what he'd seen how it floated through

297
00:13:38,980 --> 00:13:35,990
the air how big it was and that was the

298
00:13:41,319 --> 00:13:38,990
moment where I was like I have to I got

299
00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:41,329
to do this I want to meet witnesses I

300
00:13:45,249 --> 00:13:43,610
want to see how they react and I want to

301
00:13:47,230 --> 00:13:45,259
know how it affected their lives and

302
00:13:49,119 --> 00:13:47,240
that's kind of kind of what I went with

303
00:13:50,980 --> 00:13:49,129
with the book that was my approach is

304
00:13:53,530 --> 00:13:50,990
let's let's implement my playwriting

305
00:13:56,530 --> 00:13:53,540
skills of characters and induce that

306
00:13:59,970 --> 00:13:56,540
into my research not creating characters

307
00:14:02,889 --> 00:13:59,980
but kind of taking that idea and and

308
00:14:06,759 --> 00:14:02,899
focusing on the people having the events

309
00:14:08,799 --> 00:14:06,769
rather than the event itself yeah and

310
00:14:12,179 --> 00:14:08,809
that's kind of one of the most

311
00:14:15,309 --> 00:14:12,189
fascinating aspects of this all it's not

312
00:14:20,019 --> 00:14:15,319
the experience it's the experience or

313
00:14:23,379 --> 00:14:20,029
themselves and how they come away in how

314
00:14:25,509 --> 00:14:23,389
it changes them and it's kind of amazing

315
00:14:30,670 --> 00:14:25,519
that nobody's really done this before

316
00:14:32,439 --> 00:14:30,680
we're like over seven years into UFO

317
00:14:35,710 --> 00:14:32,449
research and nobody has really done this

318
00:14:39,040 --> 00:14:35,720
it's always been the story or the report

319
00:14:41,679 --> 00:14:39,050
or what happened it's never what happens

320
00:14:44,829 --> 00:14:41,689
after so I commend you dude the great

321
00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:44,839
job on the subject of this it's

322
00:14:49,840 --> 00:14:46,970
definitely a book that I recommend now

323
00:14:51,699 --> 00:14:49,850
for people to go to if people are

324
00:14:54,369 --> 00:14:51,709
interested in UFOs it's definitely one

325
00:14:56,949 --> 00:14:54,379
that I recommend upfront how did you

326
00:14:59,679 --> 00:14:56,959
come to find all the people that you

327
00:15:01,870 --> 00:14:59,689
interviewed and how long did it take to

328
00:15:02,519 --> 00:15:01,880
gather all the information and put it

329
00:15:05,790 --> 00:15:02,529
into a

330
00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:05,800
or eight I'd say from like the first

331
00:15:12,869 --> 00:15:09,370
interview to literally you know send it

332
00:15:15,900 --> 00:15:12,879
it off to the publisher maybe about two

333
00:15:19,439 --> 00:15:15,910
and a half years or so I mean it was not

334
00:15:22,280 --> 00:15:19,449
short but it was not long either I I did

335
00:15:25,259 --> 00:15:22,290
some traveling to go meet people

336
00:15:27,989 --> 00:15:25,269
countless nights over Skype and on the

337
00:15:31,199 --> 00:15:27,999
phone my verizon bill was higher than

338
00:15:35,340 --> 00:15:31,209
it's ever been and still on a family

339
00:15:41,369 --> 00:15:35,350
plan so thank you Dad for that but yeah

340
00:15:43,769 --> 00:15:41,379
man I it was an amazing journey and just

341
00:15:48,210 --> 00:15:43,779
you know I went in stayed a week with

342
00:15:50,670 --> 00:15:48,220
some abductees I flew out to Arizona to

343
00:15:54,860 --> 00:15:50,680
meet with some some witnesses for this I

344
00:15:57,900 --> 00:15:54,870
I went to a couple other places and

345
00:15:59,489 --> 00:15:57,910
interviewed people face to face and it

346
00:16:01,170 --> 00:15:59,499
was just it was an incredible experience

347
00:16:02,910 --> 00:16:01,180
you know I kind of wanted to take that

348
00:16:05,549 --> 00:16:02,920
journalistic approach and that

349
00:16:08,639 --> 00:16:05,559
boots-on-the-ground approach and get out

350
00:16:13,350 --> 00:16:08,649
there and talk to the people so you know

351
00:16:15,629 --> 00:16:13,360
Skype Facebook online forums these were

352
00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:15,639
all very valuable assets to me that a

353
00:16:19,889 --> 00:16:17,410
lot of researchers didn't have in the

354
00:16:21,780 --> 00:16:19,899
past so you know god bless the internet

355
00:16:25,470 --> 00:16:21,790
for all its it's good and bad it really

356
00:16:28,019 --> 00:16:25,480
helped me with this man you really you

357
00:16:29,850 --> 00:16:28,029
really mind for it too because the what

358
00:16:33,059 --> 00:16:29,860
you get in the book is like a really

359
00:16:35,879 --> 00:16:33,069
wide swath of people and experiences

360
00:16:41,189 --> 00:16:35,889
that run the gamut from just seeing a

361
00:16:43,100 --> 00:16:41,199
UFO like a the ce-1 or a nocturnal light

362
00:16:46,490 --> 00:16:43,110
kind of sighting all the way up to

363
00:16:49,559 --> 00:16:46,500
abductions and it's definitely

364
00:16:51,509 --> 00:16:49,569
well-rounded and another thing that I

365
00:16:53,939 --> 00:16:51,519
really love about the book what

366
00:16:56,509 --> 00:16:53,949
surprised you the most while doing the

367
00:17:01,379 --> 00:16:56,519
research and doing the interviews I

368
00:17:05,220 --> 00:17:01,389
think what really surprised me was just

369
00:17:06,840 --> 00:17:05,230
the the spectrum of reaction and

370
00:17:08,340 --> 00:17:06,850
aftermath you know when I first set out

371
00:17:10,919 --> 00:17:08,350
to write the book I said oh I'm gonna

372
00:17:13,110 --> 00:17:10,929
find this one linear pattern to all the

373
00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:13,120
cases and there we go

374
00:17:22,030 --> 00:17:15,770
boom I've solved the UFO mystery

375
00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:22,040
I did yeah that was the stupidest thing

376
00:17:30,580 --> 00:17:27,410
I ever could have assumed but yeah it it

377
00:17:35,230 --> 00:17:30,590
was definitely like the spectrum of you

378
00:17:40,390 --> 00:17:35,240
know someone has a UFO sighting or ace-1

379
00:17:42,280 --> 00:17:40,400
two three four five even and it impacts

380
00:17:46,180 --> 00:17:42,290
them greatly it changes their entire

381
00:17:47,230 --> 00:17:46,190
life whereas I interviewed a guy who had

382
00:17:50,470 --> 00:17:47,240
a sighting on his way to his first

383
00:17:53,560 --> 00:17:50,480
military job and it was a classic

384
00:17:56,110 --> 00:17:53,570
saucer-shaped craft that stopped his car

385
00:18:00,400 --> 00:17:56,120
that circled around him that took off

386
00:18:02,170 --> 00:18:00,410
and he literally said to me oh yeah just

387
00:18:04,660 --> 00:18:02,180
got in my car went to a bar and went to

388
00:18:08,650 --> 00:18:04,670
my job I mean that that right there man

389
00:18:10,030 --> 00:18:08,660
astounded me I thought oh wait like no

390
00:18:11,980 --> 00:18:10,040
matter what this is a profound

391
00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:11,990
experience and it's going to change your

392
00:18:16,900 --> 00:18:14,690
life forever for this guy no it really

393
00:18:19,780 --> 00:18:16,910
didn't he had it he thought it was

394
00:18:21,820 --> 00:18:19,790
pretty cool and maybe it opened his eyes

395
00:18:24,730 --> 00:18:21,830
a little but it did not change him in

396
00:18:26,860 --> 00:18:24,740
the profound ways I had expected and as

397
00:18:29,410 --> 00:18:26,870
for other people I talked to a guy who

398
00:18:32,290 --> 00:18:29,420
had an abduction experience Michael

399
00:18:35,410 --> 00:18:32,300
Carter the guy who became a minister of

400
00:18:39,250 --> 00:18:35,420
a church after he was aboard a craft

401
00:18:40,990 --> 00:18:39,260
apparently talking to these white alien

402
00:18:43,060 --> 00:18:41,000
beings and they showed him an image of

403
00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:43,070
prayer hands with a lightning bolt

404
00:18:48,070 --> 00:18:43,610
through it

405
00:18:50,650 --> 00:18:48,080
this was his sort of you know I guess

406
00:18:53,560 --> 00:18:50,660
translation in his own mind that he had

407
00:18:56,950 --> 00:18:53,570
to pursue faith healing he had to infuse

408
00:18:59,140 --> 00:18:56,960
his UFO encounters with his spiritualism

409
00:19:01,780 --> 00:18:59,150
became a minister wrote some books on

410
00:19:03,730 --> 00:19:01,790
UFOs in the Bible so I mean that changed

411
00:19:05,980 --> 00:19:03,740
the entire course of that dude's life so

412
00:19:07,660 --> 00:19:05,990
it really ran a spectrum and I think

413
00:19:13,030 --> 00:19:07,670
that's what was most surprising to me is

414
00:19:16,150 --> 00:19:13,040
this is messy it's profound it's mundane

415
00:19:18,550 --> 00:19:16,160
it's scary it's beautiful and it's

416
00:19:20,530 --> 00:19:18,560
everything in between and I think that's

417
00:19:22,570 --> 00:19:20,540
what's beautiful about all of it is

418
00:19:24,910 --> 00:19:22,580
we're all gonna take whatever we

419
00:19:27,190 --> 00:19:24,920
experience a different way and either

420
00:19:29,170 --> 00:19:27,200
infuse that embrace it into our lives or

421
00:19:31,510 --> 00:19:29,180
reject it and deny and

422
00:19:34,630 --> 00:19:31,520
phonce oh yeah that that's kind of what

423
00:19:37,330 --> 00:19:34,640
surprised me the most is just how messy

424
00:19:40,180 --> 00:19:37,340
this melting pot really is yeah really

425
00:19:43,470 --> 00:19:40,190
is and I think some of the interesting

426
00:19:46,210 --> 00:19:43,480
interviews that you did involve

427
00:19:49,090 --> 00:19:46,220
especially when you're talking about the

428
00:19:51,700 --> 00:19:49,100
ones that involve interactions with

429
00:19:55,540 --> 00:19:51,710
beings of some kind like Claudette

430
00:19:57,430 --> 00:19:55,550
Huber's case that's not any kind of

431
00:20:00,700 --> 00:19:57,440
alien being that I've ever really heard

432
00:20:03,220 --> 00:20:00,710
of it's just it's short it's it's got

433
00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:03,230
darker skin with and it's wearing a

434
00:20:08,890 --> 00:20:06,770
black flowing robe yeah dude this that

435
00:20:12,220 --> 00:20:08,900
one really surprised me that was one of

436
00:20:14,050 --> 00:20:12,230
the individuals I met in person and it's

437
00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:14,060
kind of an interesting story so I met

438
00:20:20,380 --> 00:20:18,170
her at a UFO conference and I asked her

439
00:20:22,660 --> 00:20:20,390
I knew she had an experience and she'd

440
00:20:26,530 --> 00:20:22,670
never spoken about about it to anyone

441
00:20:28,210 --> 00:20:26,540
and I said hey you know would you be

442
00:20:30,460 --> 00:20:28,220
willing to talk about this with me and

443
00:20:32,500 --> 00:20:30,470
just kind of see where it goes I'll turn

444
00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:32,510
a recorder on but I will never let it

445
00:20:37,090 --> 00:20:34,730
share it with anyone and it took some

446
00:20:39,430 --> 00:20:37,100
time and some debate and she decided to

447
00:20:42,190 --> 00:20:39,440
do it so I had dinner with her and her

448
00:20:43,870 --> 00:20:42,200
husband and you know she broke down into

449
00:20:46,060 --> 00:20:43,880
tears when she said I want to share my

450
00:20:49,710 --> 00:20:46,070
story with you and her husband's they're

451
00:20:52,540 --> 00:20:49,720
holding her hand supporting her and she

452
00:20:54,670 --> 00:20:52,550
she came up to my hotel room we sat

453
00:20:57,430 --> 00:20:54,680
there for over an hour and a half maybe

454
00:20:59,530 --> 00:20:57,440
two hours and she divulged everything to

455
00:21:01,120 --> 00:20:59,540
me and again it was one of those pivotal

456
00:21:03,820 --> 00:21:01,130
moments where I was like this is what I

457
00:21:07,390 --> 00:21:03,830
have to do I have to focus on the person

458
00:21:09,100 --> 00:21:07,400
and let them tell the story not me let

459
00:21:11,140 --> 00:21:09,110
them tell me what they saw what they

460
00:21:14,380 --> 00:21:11,150
experienced and how they felt what they

461
00:21:16,270 --> 00:21:14,390
think it was so with Claudette yeah she

462
00:21:18,490 --> 00:21:16,280
was very young when this happened she

463
00:21:21,660 --> 00:21:18,500
saw these weird beings like you said

464
00:21:26,350 --> 00:21:21,670
almost monk-like in appearance dark

465
00:21:30,520 --> 00:21:26,360
crackly skin very you know moist almost

466
00:21:32,380 --> 00:21:30,530
as if the air was very very humid and it

467
00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:32,390
was weird you never really heard about

468
00:21:37,270 --> 00:21:35,570
this other than maybe some of the beings

469
00:21:40,350 --> 00:21:37,280
that Whitley Strieber once described

470
00:21:42,790 --> 00:21:40,360
seeing but this actually happened

471
00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:42,800
Claudette's event before

472
00:21:49,300 --> 00:21:46,850
that came out so she had a trigger event

473
00:21:52,120 --> 00:21:49,310
later in life when her boyfriend at the

474
00:21:56,800 --> 00:21:52,130
time was watching communion the movie

475
00:21:58,630 --> 00:21:56,810
that horrible god-awful movie for all

476
00:22:01,360 --> 00:21:58,640
its faults I still love it it's a cult

477
00:22:03,220 --> 00:22:01,370
classic but she saw the being in that

478
00:22:04,900 --> 00:22:03,230
movie and she flipped out

479
00:22:06,490 --> 00:22:04,910
you know she cowered behind the couch

480
00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:06,500
and started crying boyfriends like

481
00:22:09,970 --> 00:22:08,210
what's going on what's going on and she

482
00:22:12,850 --> 00:22:09,980
couldn't tell him you know couldn't tell

483
00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:12,860
him for many years later so again a lot

484
00:22:17,530 --> 00:22:15,530
of this is not what you would expect

485
00:22:21,130 --> 00:22:17,540
this was not the little grey beings with

486
00:22:24,190 --> 00:22:21,140
big black eyes big head this was a monk

487
00:22:26,140 --> 00:22:24,200
blue and black in appearance and wearing

488
00:22:27,850 --> 00:22:26,150
some kind of ancient robe man I don't

489
00:22:30,100 --> 00:22:27,860
know I don't know what to make of it and

490
00:22:32,260 --> 00:22:30,110
I don't pretend to either this is what

491
00:22:33,940 --> 00:22:32,270
she experienced and I'm going to relate

492
00:22:36,340 --> 00:22:33,950
that the best way I can as the

493
00:22:38,350 --> 00:22:36,350
journalist and the author and I think

494
00:22:39,670 --> 00:22:38,360
what's interesting is to say just in the

495
00:22:42,340 --> 00:22:39,680
way it reads she only had like one

496
00:22:45,070 --> 00:22:42,350
experience with these beings right yes

497
00:22:47,020 --> 00:22:45,080
apparently you know I've spoken to her a

498
00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:47,030
couple times after that if she said

499
00:22:50,950 --> 00:22:48,650
she's had some other weird experiences

500
00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:50,960
but nothing as dramatic as this so

501
00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:53,330
that's another big thing is you know

502
00:22:58,450 --> 00:22:55,490
some of these people it's a lifelong

503
00:23:00,340 --> 00:22:58,460
thing it happens it's reoccurring for

504
00:23:02,770 --> 00:23:00,350
others it's a singular event so again

505
00:23:05,470 --> 00:23:02,780
there's very few patterns that can be

506
00:23:07,630 --> 00:23:05,480
made with all of this but you know we're

507
00:23:09,430 --> 00:23:07,640
gonna keep trying and we're just gonna

508
00:23:12,370 --> 00:23:09,440
keep recording what we can when it

509
00:23:15,570 --> 00:23:12,380
happens and if it happens that's kind of

510
00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:15,580
one of those aspects that we don't get a

511
00:23:20,980 --> 00:23:18,610
view of most of the time because when

512
00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:20,990
we're talking about abductions it's

513
00:23:28,330 --> 00:23:24,530
always a life long event or at least

514
00:23:30,100 --> 00:23:28,340
most of the life and it's always it runs

515
00:23:31,780 --> 00:23:30,110
in families and all this stuff and like

516
00:23:34,210 --> 00:23:31,790
the there are definitely people in your

517
00:23:36,670 --> 00:23:34,220
book that kind of defy that a little bit

518
00:23:38,530 --> 00:23:36,680
yeah like you said Michael Carter he his

519
00:23:41,290 --> 00:23:38,540
experiences only lasted like what about

520
00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:41,300
six months or so yeah within the span of

521
00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:44,210
six months he had a ton of experiences

522
00:23:51,510 --> 00:23:47,810
so again whatever is happening no matter

523
00:23:53,210 --> 00:23:51,520
what it is aliens some higher power

524
00:23:54,980 --> 00:23:53,220
interdimensional I

525
00:23:56,960 --> 00:23:54,990
no man again I don't pretend to know

526
00:24:00,950 --> 00:23:56,970
what the abduction phenomenon is or

527
00:24:03,350 --> 00:24:00,960
who's in control of it but I mean my god

528
00:24:05,899 --> 00:24:03,360
they say like they'll they won't they

529
00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:05,909
won't do Tia what you can't handle but I

530
00:24:11,539 --> 00:24:08,490
don't know how that man can still be

531
00:24:13,279 --> 00:24:11,549
sane after that many experiences

532
00:24:17,659 --> 00:24:13,289
he did tell me that he went under

533
00:24:20,450 --> 00:24:17,669
therapy after a lot of this and and kind

534
00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:20,460
of stepped away from it for a little

535
00:24:25,010 --> 00:24:23,490
while to live his life but yeah the

536
00:24:27,049 --> 00:24:25,020
whole running and Families thing I know

537
00:24:29,090 --> 00:24:27,059
you've you're a big proponent of that

538
00:24:30,500 --> 00:24:29,100
idea that that seems to be one of the

539
00:24:32,899 --> 00:24:30,510
only patterns we can make with these

540
00:24:35,330 --> 00:24:32,909
things and I agree with you while I

541
00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:35,340
didn't find many of those cases I know

542
00:24:40,070 --> 00:24:37,770
they're out there and there must be

543
00:24:42,409 --> 00:24:40,080
something to it I just in my own

544
00:24:45,980 --> 00:24:42,419
research I haven't tapped into that

545
00:24:48,380 --> 00:24:45,990
quite yet and you know it's a phenomenon

546
00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:48,390
that constantly reforms and constantly

547
00:24:52,549 --> 00:24:50,730
reshapes itself so it's it's interesting

548
00:24:55,580 --> 00:24:52,559
to see this wide swath they were

549
00:24:57,350 --> 00:24:55,590
definitely aspects of that book that

550
00:24:58,700 --> 00:24:57,360
I've really just enjoyed not gonna say

551
00:25:00,350 --> 00:24:58,710
that in like a billion times because I

552
00:25:04,130 --> 00:25:00,360
really did it I love the hell out of

553
00:25:06,140 --> 00:25:04,140
your book thank you I swear to your

554
00:25:09,380 --> 00:25:06,150
listeners I didn't come on here just for

555
00:25:12,470 --> 00:25:09,390
that but no dude I really appreciate

556
00:25:14,060 --> 00:25:12,480
that like again I just I just want to

557
00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:14,070
get these stories out there for

558
00:25:19,549 --> 00:25:17,970
individuals who who just need like they

559
00:25:21,140 --> 00:25:19,559
want their voices to be heard you know

560
00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:21,150
they're not whitley strieber they're not

561
00:25:27,620 --> 00:25:24,690
these these big cases like Rendell

562
00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:27,630
Schumer allagash or anything like that

563
00:25:32,149 --> 00:25:30,210
they're they're people who had their

564
00:25:33,380 --> 00:25:32,159
everyday people that's that's kind of

565
00:25:35,390 --> 00:25:33,390
what I'm trying to get at with the whole

566
00:25:38,090 --> 00:25:35,400
thing is this is your next-door neighbor

567
00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:38,100
this is your you know your professor in

568
00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:39,530
college this is your law enforcement

569
00:25:47,450 --> 00:25:44,490
officer this is the mailman I mean it

570
00:25:49,399 --> 00:25:47,460
isn't some that cliche of like some hick

571
00:25:51,950 --> 00:25:49,409
in the backwoods having an experience

572
00:25:57,610 --> 00:25:51,960
those days are over and honestly they

573
00:25:59,810 --> 00:25:57,620
never truly were that that cliche so I I

574
00:26:01,549 --> 00:25:59,820
appreciate the broad spectrum of

575
00:26:03,470 --> 00:26:01,559
individuals having experiences and

576
00:26:05,870 --> 00:26:03,480
coming forward having the courage to

577
00:26:06,830 --> 00:26:05,880
give the real names that was another big

578
00:26:09,710 --> 00:26:06,840
thing in the book

579
00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:09,720
I wanted no pseudonyms I wanted these

580
00:26:15,050 --> 00:26:12,930
people to own it to embrace it and to

581
00:26:16,700 --> 00:26:15,060
get out there and that's a huge huge

582
00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:16,710
risk for them so if any of them are

583
00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:20,010
listening I always say thank you thank

584
00:26:23,870 --> 00:26:21,690
you for having the courage to do that

585
00:26:26,150 --> 00:26:23,880
because the ramification to coming

586
00:26:27,770 --> 00:26:26,160
forward with this as you know it can go

587
00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:27,780
one of two ways either people are like

588
00:26:33,740 --> 00:26:31,170
interesting cool or they're like hey you

589
00:26:35,660 --> 00:26:33,750
just lost your job or hey you know we're

590
00:26:38,750 --> 00:26:35,670
gonna ridicule the hell out of you after

591
00:26:40,730 --> 00:26:38,760
this so again I applaud each and every

592
00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:40,740
person in the book and who are not in

593
00:26:44,120 --> 00:26:42,570
the book as well who come forward with

594
00:26:45,890 --> 00:26:44,130
the real names on these things I think

595
00:26:49,310 --> 00:26:45,900
that's really the only way it's gonna be

596
00:26:52,070 --> 00:26:49,320
normalized yeah I absolutely believe

597
00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:52,080
that and for all the criticism I throw

598
00:26:57,170 --> 00:26:55,170
to to the Stars Academy and and the New

599
00:26:59,360 --> 00:26:57,180
York Times article hopefully you know at

600
00:27:02,900 --> 00:26:59,370
least we're on the precipice of kind of

601
00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:02,910
reshaping the image of UFO research I

602
00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:04,770
definitely hope that's a step in the

603
00:27:10,670 --> 00:27:07,050
right direction I think so

604
00:27:12,650 --> 00:27:10,680
yeah I agree aside from the one story

605
00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:12,660
that takes place in my hometown that you

606
00:27:19,220 --> 00:27:16,050
were a part of the one story that just

607
00:27:22,910 --> 00:27:19,230
scared the daylights out of me was Patti

608
00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:22,920
Blackburn story and her daughters could

609
00:27:26,990 --> 00:27:25,410
you just kind of go into it man and talk

610
00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:27,000
a little bit about it because it is

611
00:27:32,750 --> 00:27:29,610
reads like an abduction case but it's

612
00:27:35,150 --> 00:27:32,760
not an abduction case yes it's so very

613
00:27:38,270 --> 00:27:35,160
strange yeah absolutely man

614
00:27:40,460 --> 00:27:38,280
again yeah this is one that really stood

615
00:27:43,130 --> 00:27:40,470
out to me and I'm still working with

616
00:27:44,300 --> 00:27:43,140
Patti on this because I'll tell you what

617
00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:44,310
like this is definitely one of those

618
00:27:49,550 --> 00:27:47,010
reoccurring event things that's still

619
00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:49,560
sort of going on so yeah this was

620
00:27:54,620 --> 00:27:50,490
definitely one of the more dramatic

621
00:27:57,650 --> 00:27:54,630
stories this happen in Michigan and it

622
00:27:59,990 --> 00:27:57,660
was in 2006 right over Lake Michigan

623
00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:00,000
Michigan she lived right near the water

624
00:28:05,270 --> 00:28:02,730
again that's another big thing a lot of

625
00:28:07,730 --> 00:28:05,280
these things happened over water yeah I

626
00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:07,740
don't know what to make of that but we

627
00:28:12,230 --> 00:28:09,650
can definitely talk about that anyways

628
00:28:14,870 --> 00:28:12,240
she's heading out to walk her dogs one

629
00:28:16,820 --> 00:28:14,880
night and she could feel something was

630
00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:16,830
sort of off you know the dogs they

631
00:28:20,630 --> 00:28:18,690
wouldn't leave the front porch they're

632
00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:20,640
you know they're whimpering

633
00:28:25,010 --> 00:28:22,410
and she makes her way down the front

634
00:28:26,419 --> 00:28:25,020
lawn to try to get him to come with her

635
00:28:30,620 --> 00:28:26,429
you know and that's when she noticed

636
00:28:32,900 --> 00:28:30,630
that there is a black triangle floating

637
00:28:35,419 --> 00:28:32,910
right above the tree line over her

638
00:28:38,150 --> 00:28:35,429
property and it kind of stopped her dead

639
00:28:39,620 --> 00:28:38,160
in her tracks and yeah obviously she

640
00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:39,630
couldn't believe what she seen so she

641
00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:41,970
kind of like me at age 12 she starts

642
00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:44,370
yelling for someone to come see this you

643
00:28:47,870 --> 00:28:45,690
know make sure it's actually happening

644
00:28:52,039 --> 00:28:47,880
to her and her her younger daughter

645
00:28:53,630 --> 00:28:52,049
Jennifer she comes outside and Jennifer

646
00:28:55,370 --> 00:28:53,640
comes out you know they're both kind of

647
00:28:58,880 --> 00:28:55,380
staring up at this thing the daughter

648
00:29:01,280 --> 00:28:58,890
did see it and it starts slowly creeping

649
00:29:05,150 --> 00:29:01,290
closer until it's literally directly

650
00:29:06,799 --> 00:29:05,160
above them what would I what I kind of

651
00:29:09,380 --> 00:29:06,809
found most interesting about this one

652
00:29:11,180 --> 00:29:09,390
though was that Pattie while she's

653
00:29:13,190 --> 00:29:11,190
looking at this thing she hears a low

654
00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:13,200
humming like you mentioned earlier like

655
00:29:18,740 --> 00:29:16,530
a whooshing sound almost and she asks

656
00:29:20,870 --> 00:29:18,750
Jennifer if she can hear it and when she

657
00:29:22,870 --> 00:29:20,880
looks over at Jennifer she's covering

658
00:29:27,289 --> 00:29:22,880
their ears and telling her mom how

659
00:29:30,230 --> 00:29:27,299
unbearably loud the noise is so that was

660
00:29:33,460 --> 00:29:30,240
immediately where I was like what what

661
00:29:35,990 --> 00:29:33,470
that like your low humming for the mom

662
00:29:37,159 --> 00:29:36,000
unbearably loud for the daughter what's

663
00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:37,169
going on here

664
00:29:40,970 --> 00:29:39,330
so you know they're having completely

665
00:29:43,039 --> 00:29:40,980
different experiences in terms of

666
00:29:44,890 --> 00:29:43,049
hearing the craft and while this is

667
00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:44,900
happening Patti starts to feel calm

668
00:29:52,100 --> 00:29:47,850
she's collected and the daughters

669
00:29:53,930 --> 00:29:52,110
terrified she thinks this is a threat of

670
00:29:56,299 --> 00:29:53,940
some sort while their mom's feeling

671
00:29:58,630 --> 00:29:56,309
euphoric and that's where I think that

672
00:30:02,150 --> 00:29:58,640
whole idea man of them being able to

673
00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:02,160
convey some sort of reaction and emotion

674
00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:03,570
out of us while an event is happening

675
00:30:08,450 --> 00:30:06,450
whatever intelligence is behind it but

676
00:30:10,030 --> 00:30:08,460
um like you said that that wasn't kind

677
00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:10,040
at the end that was the initial

678
00:30:15,799 --> 00:30:13,890
experience of Pattie you know some time

679
00:30:18,650 --> 00:30:15,809
later the daughter her other daughter

680
00:30:20,930 --> 00:30:18,660
Jessica she's getting ready for bed one

681
00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:20,940
night and she's walking in the hallway

682
00:30:25,039 --> 00:30:23,370
of the house and she sees a figure

683
00:30:27,110 --> 00:30:25,049
coming out of her younger sisters

684
00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:27,120
bedroom you know she assumed it was her

685
00:30:31,159 --> 00:30:29,730
sister you know head into bed maybe she

686
00:30:33,530 --> 00:30:31,169
was in the bathroom or something but

687
00:30:34,190 --> 00:30:33,540
when whatever this thing is that comes

688
00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:34,200
into sight

689
00:30:40,070 --> 00:30:36,690
it was not her sister she described it

690
00:30:44,299 --> 00:30:40,080
as being about 4 feet tall large head

691
00:30:46,609 --> 00:30:44,309
small body and it had large black eyes

692
00:30:51,259 --> 00:30:46,619
so right here you've got kind of the

693
00:30:52,909 --> 00:30:51,269
prototypical gray as it were this is

694
00:30:55,970 --> 00:30:52,919
where I started getting really creeped

695
00:30:58,970 --> 00:30:55,980
out man with this whole story she went

696
00:31:00,919 --> 00:30:58,980
on to say that had a robe on with a hood

697
00:31:03,830 --> 00:31:00,929
kind of like what Claudette had

698
00:31:06,529 --> 00:31:03,840
experienced and it just stared at her

699
00:31:07,549 --> 00:31:06,539
and it starts slowly moving towards the

700
00:31:10,820 --> 00:31:07,559
parents room

701
00:31:13,190 --> 00:31:10,830
so Jessica freaks out she goes into her

702
00:31:14,479 --> 00:31:13,200
bedroom gets under the covers and she

703
00:31:16,940 --> 00:31:14,489
doesn't know what to do you know she's a

704
00:31:19,369 --> 00:31:16,950
kid she stays underneath she's scared to

705
00:31:22,940 --> 00:31:19,379
death to look and when she hears her

706
00:31:24,830 --> 00:31:22,950
mother's voice in the room she takes the

707
00:31:27,049 --> 00:31:24,840
covers off you know the soothing voice

708
00:31:27,950 --> 00:31:27,059
of her mother and the mothers in there

709
00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:27,960
to say goodnight

710
00:31:33,289 --> 00:31:29,970
she's still too scared to say anything

711
00:31:36,470 --> 00:31:33,299
to her mom about it and she can see this

712
00:31:39,369 --> 00:31:36,480
hooded figure walking around her bedroom

713
00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:39,379
while the mom is in there silently and

714
00:31:43,669 --> 00:31:41,970
jessica is just petrified at this point

715
00:31:46,669 --> 00:31:43,679
she's frozen she doesn't know what to do

716
00:31:49,999 --> 00:31:46,679
and finally her mom kisses her on the

717
00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:50,009
forehead says goodnight and goes out of

718
00:31:58,849 --> 00:31:53,850
the room and the being just follows the

719
00:32:01,789 --> 00:31:58,859
mom out and that was that was it man she

720
00:32:03,889 --> 00:32:01,799
thought maybe this was some weird dream

721
00:32:06,499 --> 00:32:03,899
she'd had but then she started seeing as

722
00:32:11,119 --> 00:32:06,509
being in her dreams constantly after

723
00:32:13,729 --> 00:32:11,129
that and this all kind of culminated

724
00:32:15,739 --> 00:32:13,739
into a really bad experience for the

725
00:32:18,499 --> 00:32:15,749
family they started having weird

726
00:32:20,479 --> 00:32:18,509
poltergeist activity paranormal stuff

727
00:32:22,700 --> 00:32:20,489
happening in the home and it just got

728
00:32:25,009 --> 00:32:22,710
out of control you know one time there

729
00:32:28,399 --> 00:32:25,019
their electricity went out the dude

730
00:32:30,649 --> 00:32:28,409
comes to fix it he sees a UFO over the

731
00:32:34,749 --> 00:32:30,659
house and tells them he's never coming

732
00:32:37,099 --> 00:32:34,759
back so you have corroboration that

733
00:32:39,379 --> 00:32:37,109
something weird is going on in this

734
00:32:41,690 --> 00:32:39,389
family's home it really starts to eat

735
00:32:44,089 --> 00:32:41,700
away at them the two daughters and the

736
00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:44,099
mother stop talking to each other they

737
00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:47,130
become very very introverted

738
00:32:52,190 --> 00:32:49,650
and it's not good man the mother thinks

739
00:32:55,070 --> 00:32:52,200
that whatever's happening is demonic she

740
00:32:58,310 --> 00:32:55,080
was Christian and what they decided to

741
00:33:00,530 --> 00:32:58,320
do and this is a really really

742
00:33:03,290 --> 00:33:00,540
interesting defense mechanism I guess is

743
00:33:05,570 --> 00:33:03,300
to pray they all started praying

744
00:33:08,870 --> 00:33:05,580
together for these things to stop

745
00:33:09,350 --> 00:33:08,880
happening and for a while that seemed to

746
00:33:12,410 --> 00:33:09,360
work

747
00:33:13,940 --> 00:33:12,420
they prayed it didn't happen the

748
00:33:15,860 --> 00:33:13,950
daughters moved on with their lives

749
00:33:18,770 --> 00:33:15,870
but patty is still having some weird

750
00:33:20,780 --> 00:33:18,780
experiences at the home and struggling

751
00:33:23,090 --> 00:33:20,790
with her spiritual spirituality and

752
00:33:27,590 --> 00:33:23,100
whatever the hell is going on in that

753
00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:27,600
house above the house and beyond so it's

754
00:33:32,270 --> 00:33:29,730
just I don't know what to make of all of

755
00:33:35,750 --> 00:33:32,280
it man it's it's heartbreaking it's

756
00:33:37,310 --> 00:33:35,760
terrifying and I'm still working with

757
00:33:38,950 --> 00:33:37,320
patty to this day to figure out what the

758
00:33:42,020 --> 00:33:38,960
hell is going on out there in Michigan

759
00:33:42,770 --> 00:33:42,030
it's terrifying it's absolutely

760
00:33:46,730 --> 00:33:42,780
terrifying

761
00:33:50,030 --> 00:33:46,740
and really is one of the most bizarre

762
00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:50,040
cases that I have ever read simply

763
00:33:54,890 --> 00:33:52,530
because when you're talking about

764
00:33:56,980 --> 00:33:54,900
poltergeist activity it almost mimics

765
00:34:00,110 --> 00:33:56,990
the way that poltergeist activity

766
00:34:02,780 --> 00:34:00,120
happened in Point Pleasant with the

767
00:34:05,870 --> 00:34:02,790
Mothman thing - the really weird

768
00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:05,880
telephone calls but it's right right the

769
00:34:12,530 --> 00:34:09,330
whole Indrid cold thing yeah it's so

770
00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:12,540
strange because like it doesn't fit into

771
00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:16,050
a box even for like the average UFO

772
00:34:21,020 --> 00:34:18,690
research and and UFOs really don't fit

773
00:34:24,830 --> 00:34:21,030
into a box very neatly themselves but

774
00:34:28,550 --> 00:34:24,840
this goes above and beyond that so damn

775
00:34:29,810 --> 00:34:28,560
man I had nightmares after me - dude I

776
00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:29,820
don't know how she goes on day-to-day

777
00:34:33,500 --> 00:34:32,010
and you know we do here you know valet

778
00:34:35,720 --> 00:34:33,510
talks about this and many other

779
00:34:38,510 --> 00:34:35,730
researchers about that aspect of high

780
00:34:41,090 --> 00:34:38,520
strangeness after a UFO event that it

781
00:34:41,869 --> 00:34:41,100
kind of just opens these doors it lifts

782
00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:41,879
the veil

783
00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:44,490
you know you've now had something that

784
00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:48,330
kind of bends your reality and then it's

785
00:34:52,820 --> 00:34:50,490
just the floodgates after that you know

786
00:34:55,790 --> 00:34:52,830
the cryptids are like oh I'm coming in

787
00:34:58,490 --> 00:34:55,800
the ghosts are like let's do this you

788
00:35:00,140 --> 00:34:58,500
know it's just like up aliens you got

789
00:35:00,950 --> 00:35:00,150
that cool all right we're gonna go in

790
00:35:02,630 --> 00:35:00,960
now

791
00:35:06,079 --> 00:35:02,640
gonna mess around a little bit and then

792
00:35:08,720 --> 00:35:06,089
we'll be out in you don't know if any of

793
00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:08,730
this stuff whether it's the non-human

794
00:35:13,790 --> 00:35:11,490
intelligence the apparitions the the

795
00:35:16,730 --> 00:35:13,800
high strangeness like if it even gives a

796
00:35:18,980 --> 00:35:16,740
about these people that's another

797
00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:18,990
big thing is while it's impacting their

798
00:35:22,910 --> 00:35:20,970
lives and changing their lives it's not

799
00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:22,920
always for the better you know I talked

800
00:35:28,730 --> 00:35:25,530
to people who became very depressed had

801
00:35:31,070 --> 00:35:28,740
to get on meds started drinking so it's

802
00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:31,080
not always good implications to these

803
00:35:36,620 --> 00:35:33,930
things and it's not brotherly love I can

804
00:35:38,900 --> 00:35:36,630
tell you that much stared but I don't

805
00:35:42,820 --> 00:35:38,910
know it does not fit into a box and I

806
00:35:47,630 --> 00:35:45,680
do you enjoy true stories of the

807
00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:47,640
supernatural from the people who

808
00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:50,010
experienced it well then you might like

809
00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:52,890
my show Jim Harold's campfire hi i'm jim

810
00:35:58,339 --> 00:35:55,650
and we've been doing the show since 2009

811
00:36:01,310 --> 00:35:58,349
and we talk about ghosts cryptic

812
00:36:03,230 --> 00:36:01,320
creatures ufos head scratchers you name

813
00:36:05,300 --> 00:36:03,240
it and you tune in you might hear a

814
00:36:08,390 --> 00:36:05,310
story like this one and as he was

815
00:36:11,870 --> 00:36:08,400
driving home he encountered a shadow

816
00:36:15,170 --> 00:36:11,880
person who seemed to be dressed like a

817
00:36:18,140 --> 00:36:15,180
monk I know that sounds very strange but

818
00:36:21,020 --> 00:36:18,150
it was a solid black form and it was

819
00:36:25,609 --> 00:36:21,030
wearing a hooded cloak tied at the waist

820
00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:25,619
with the cloak up and it had glowing red

821
00:36:33,349 --> 00:36:29,490
eyes he sees this thing coming out of a

822
00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:33,359
really teeny abandoned Cemetery if you

823
00:36:37,579 --> 00:36:35,130
haven't tuned in I hope you'll check us

824
00:36:40,550 --> 00:36:37,589
out you can find us on Apple podcasts

825
00:36:43,220 --> 00:36:40,560
Spotify and wherever podcasts are heard

826
00:36:45,589 --> 00:36:43,230
it's Jim Harold's campfire and you can

827
00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:45,599
find it at Jim Harold calm thanks so

828
00:36:56,470 --> 00:36:53,020
the best way and I always bring it up

829
00:37:00,270 --> 00:36:56,480
that anybody has ever talked about to

830
00:37:03,610 --> 00:37:00,280
describe what interacting with these

831
00:37:06,610 --> 00:37:03,620
intelligences is like is like the book

832
00:37:07,810 --> 00:37:06,620
flatland where it's a three-dimensional

833
00:37:09,850 --> 00:37:07,820
world interacting with the

834
00:37:12,610 --> 00:37:09,860
two-dimensional world in it I don't

835
00:37:15,250 --> 00:37:12,620
understand how to fully make out what's

836
00:37:20,290 --> 00:37:15,260
happening and it's absolutely terrifying

837
00:37:23,260 --> 00:37:20,300
so kind of shifting a little bit to your

838
00:37:25,150 --> 00:37:23,270
experience in this book on a weekend

839
00:37:27,370 --> 00:37:25,160
retreat up in my neck of the woods and

840
00:37:31,030 --> 00:37:27,380
in my hometown you gave me nightmares

841
00:37:33,820 --> 00:37:31,040
again maybe just just doing my part my

842
00:37:38,110 --> 00:37:33,830
man tried to trying to contribute to

843
00:37:41,770 --> 00:37:38,120
your tear insomnia I appreciate it man I

844
00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:41,780
definitely appreciate so could you kind

845
00:37:47,710 --> 00:37:44,810
of go in a little bit about your weekend

846
00:37:50,290 --> 00:37:47,720
up in good old Saranac Lake New York and

847
00:37:52,210 --> 00:37:50,300
the experience you had there sure I mean

848
00:37:54,220 --> 00:37:52,220
first of all one of the most beautiful

849
00:37:56,920 --> 00:37:54,230
areas I've ever seen

850
00:37:58,780 --> 00:37:56,930
yeah I've traveled the entire United

851
00:37:59,560 --> 00:37:58,790
States have been to every state but

852
00:38:04,170 --> 00:37:59,570
South Dakota

853
00:38:06,610 --> 00:38:04,180
got nothing going out there for me to go

854
00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:06,620
of your listeners who live there I'm so

855
00:38:14,740 --> 00:38:08,290
sorry

856
00:38:16,750 --> 00:38:14,750
anyways no man I I wanted to really

857
00:38:18,940 --> 00:38:16,760
embed myself in this you know kind of

858
00:38:21,670 --> 00:38:18,950
like a journalist in a war zone I wanted

859
00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:21,680
to become a part of what I was doing and

860
00:38:25,540 --> 00:38:23,570
while some journalists may find that

861
00:38:28,230 --> 00:38:25,550
irresponsible I think that's really the

862
00:38:31,720 --> 00:38:28,240
only way to go so I had the opportunity

863
00:38:34,060 --> 00:38:31,730
to spend a weekend with a good buddy of

864
00:38:36,550 --> 00:38:34,070
mine colleague Michael Ellen many know

865
00:38:38,620 --> 00:38:36,560
him as the the owl guy you know if

866
00:38:40,260 --> 00:38:38,630
you've ever had a UFO experience that it

867
00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:40,270
has somehow connected with owls or

868
00:38:47,890 --> 00:38:44,090
synchronicity he's the man to turn to

869
00:38:52,050 --> 00:38:47,900
who absolutely yep that being said Mike

870
00:38:54,940 --> 00:38:52,060
also believes he is an abductee and he

871
00:38:57,550 --> 00:38:54,950
what he wanted to do is get a group of

872
00:39:01,270 --> 00:38:57,560
experiencers together you know just to

873
00:39:03,290 --> 00:39:01,280
have conversation and spend a weekend in

874
00:39:04,910 --> 00:39:03,300
an isolated area which have

875
00:39:07,160 --> 00:39:04,920
to be a bed-and-breakfast that him and

876
00:39:11,600 --> 00:39:07,170
his partner own called the doctors in

877
00:39:14,810 --> 00:39:11,610
which is a really cool cabin right you

878
00:39:17,210 --> 00:39:14,820
know right near Saranac Lake and right

879
00:39:20,420 --> 00:39:17,220
next to it is an abandoned sanitarium

880
00:39:22,070 --> 00:39:20,430
which is really creepy they even you

881
00:39:24,710 --> 00:39:22,080
know they had some of the doctors stay

882
00:39:27,350 --> 00:39:24,720
at the end at one time so a lot of weird

883
00:39:30,320 --> 00:39:27,360
history there if we're talking like

884
00:39:31,850 --> 00:39:30,330
paranormal and legend tripping but I'm

885
00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:31,860
getting I'm getting off-topic I

886
00:39:37,070 --> 00:39:34,290
apologize uh no that's all good man and

887
00:39:38,840 --> 00:39:37,080
actually we're the doctors in is my dad

888
00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:38,850
actually used to work up in that area

889
00:39:44,840 --> 00:39:42,210
really yep he used to work for the

890
00:39:47,210 --> 00:39:44,850
American Management Association which is

891
00:39:49,220 --> 00:39:47,220
up in that neck of the woods oh wow okay

892
00:39:51,080 --> 00:39:49,230
gotcha yeah I mean I got to have

893
00:39:55,310 --> 00:39:51,090
wandered the grounds of the the

894
00:39:56,780 --> 00:39:55,320
abandoned place and god I wish I had

895
00:40:00,290 --> 00:39:56,790
like a psychic there with me

896
00:40:02,810 --> 00:40:00,300
but anyways yeah so I decided to to go

897
00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:02,820
there for the weekend and just kind of

898
00:40:08,030 --> 00:40:05,970
hear people's stories and put myself in

899
00:40:11,900 --> 00:40:08,040
that situation that vulnerable situation

900
00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:11,910
so we go my girlfriend and I god bless

901
00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:15,930
her for doing this and it was awesome

902
00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:19,410
and it wasn't like go sit talk about

903
00:40:22,820 --> 00:40:20,970
your experience Mike knew that that's

904
00:40:25,010 --> 00:40:22,830
not really how you get to the crux of

905
00:40:27,020 --> 00:40:25,020
these things and I really appreciated

906
00:40:29,930 --> 00:40:27,030
that about how he handled the weekend it

907
00:40:33,080 --> 00:40:29,940
was let's just camp have dinner go out

908
00:40:35,270 --> 00:40:33,090
drink some wine and just kind of kind of

909
00:40:37,580 --> 00:40:35,280
let things happen organically and I

910
00:40:39,590 --> 00:40:37,590
noticed that throughout the the three

911
00:40:41,570 --> 00:40:39,600
nights I was there that it would it

912
00:40:44,300 --> 00:40:41,580
would just be on a walk outside in the

913
00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:44,310
snow that maybe this one person would

914
00:40:49,370 --> 00:40:47,010
tell a story or you know why were we're

915
00:40:52,610 --> 00:40:49,380
sitting down playing cards or eating

916
00:40:54,710 --> 00:40:52,620
dinner another story comes up and that's

917
00:40:57,200 --> 00:40:54,720
kind of how the weekend went and I even

918
00:40:59,500 --> 00:40:57,210
got to meet a shaman which was freaking

919
00:41:04,520 --> 00:40:59,510
amazing I'd never met a shaman before

920
00:41:06,320 --> 00:41:04,530
and what sort of happened is as the

921
00:41:08,720 --> 00:41:06,330
night's progressed I heard more and more

922
00:41:10,910 --> 00:41:08,730
stories and I began to get a little

923
00:41:14,090 --> 00:41:10,920
uncomfortable and the last night that I

924
00:41:16,040 --> 00:41:14,100
was there I I was in bed

925
00:41:16,700 --> 00:41:16,050
my girlfriend was passed out it was a

926
00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:16,710
long

927
00:41:23,120 --> 00:41:20,490
eight and she was exhausted so she goes

928
00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:23,130
to bed and I talked to Mike and a couple

929
00:41:27,710 --> 00:41:24,450
of the others for a little bit and then

930
00:41:29,329 --> 00:41:27,720
I head up to go to sleep and in the

931
00:41:32,089 --> 00:41:29,339
middle of the night I just start hearing

932
00:41:34,609 --> 00:41:32,099
a tapping on the window outside our room

933
00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:34,619
mind you I'm three stories up in this

934
00:41:39,710 --> 00:41:37,770
building and there's no trees next to me

935
00:41:41,210 --> 00:41:39,720
so I'm like oh it's not a branch that's

936
00:41:43,609 --> 00:41:41,220
immediately what I thought it was it

937
00:41:46,130 --> 00:41:43,619
wasn't hail or snow it wasn't snowing

938
00:41:48,109 --> 00:41:46,140
maybe it's an owl which would have made

939
00:41:51,920 --> 00:41:48,119
perfect sense from where I was and who I

940
00:41:55,400 --> 00:41:51,930
was with all right so you know maybe

941
00:41:57,500 --> 00:41:55,410
that's it and I don't know what came

942
00:41:59,240 --> 00:41:57,510
over me at that moment dude but it was

943
00:42:01,550 --> 00:41:59,250
more fear than I've ever felt in my

944
00:42:04,010 --> 00:42:01,560
entire life even having a UFO sighting

945
00:42:09,680 --> 00:42:04,020
I've had a few paranormal experiences in

946
00:42:12,560 --> 00:42:09,690
the past this was stark fear of I don't

947
00:42:14,750 --> 00:42:12,570
know where my life is going to go in the

948
00:42:17,120 --> 00:42:14,760
next few moments everything I've ever

949
00:42:19,670 --> 00:42:17,130
believed is going to change and I

950
00:42:23,210 --> 00:42:19,680
genuinely thought I was about to have an

951
00:42:26,900 --> 00:42:23,220
abduction experience and I will be 100%

952
00:42:28,579 --> 00:42:26,910
honest with you I am still very very on

953
00:42:31,390 --> 00:42:28,589
defense with the abduction phenomenon

954
00:42:35,180 --> 00:42:31,400
having it be an actual physical

955
00:42:37,700 --> 00:42:35,190
phenomenon I've spoken to so many

956
00:42:40,670 --> 00:42:37,710
individuals but I am still very on the

957
00:42:44,420 --> 00:42:40,680
fence and I I think that's the right way

958
00:42:47,120 --> 00:42:44,430
to go with it but in that moment I just

959
00:42:50,060 --> 00:42:47,130
remember seeing footstep there you know

960
00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:50,070
feet under my door you know in the light

961
00:42:54,160 --> 00:42:52,890
outside the room and everyone was asleep

962
00:42:57,829 --> 00:42:54,170
at this point

963
00:42:59,780 --> 00:42:57,839
Mike's cat was locked in not locked but

964
00:43:02,450 --> 00:42:59,790
closed in his bedroom with him I'm like

965
00:43:07,640 --> 00:43:02,460
oh the hell is outside like horror and

966
00:43:09,950 --> 00:43:07,650
what is tapping on my window and I was

967
00:43:11,810 --> 00:43:09,960
just terrified and my girlfriend would

968
00:43:13,970 --> 00:43:11,820
not wake up I tried to wake her up she's

969
00:43:17,180 --> 00:43:13,980
the lightest sleeper you can think of

970
00:43:19,370 --> 00:43:17,190
you know if I even shift a muscle in bed

971
00:43:22,490 --> 00:43:19,380
she will wake up she would not wake up

972
00:43:24,440 --> 00:43:22,500
for the life of her at this moment and I

973
00:43:27,200 --> 00:43:24,450
didn't know what to do in I literally

974
00:43:30,170 --> 00:43:27,210
thought I was about to get abducted so I

975
00:43:32,750 --> 00:43:30,180
finally had the courage to

976
00:43:35,900 --> 00:43:32,760
open the curtain to the window and look

977
00:43:38,450 --> 00:43:35,910
out and that's kind of kind of where it

978
00:43:44,360 --> 00:43:38,460
all ended I guess for me in terms of

979
00:43:46,760 --> 00:43:44,370
that that night I did not see an alien

980
00:43:49,400 --> 00:43:46,770
outside my window I did not see a craft

981
00:43:52,310 --> 00:43:49,410
I saw nothing there was nothing there

982
00:43:55,670 --> 00:43:52,320
and that flood of relief came over me

983
00:43:58,010 --> 00:43:55,680
and I did not get abducted that night

984
00:44:00,080 --> 00:43:58,020
but I can sure as hell tell you that

985
00:44:03,140 --> 00:44:00,090
something weird was definitely going on

986
00:44:04,700 --> 00:44:03,150
and no matter what I believe about the

987
00:44:06,560 --> 00:44:04,710
abduction phenomenon or those Civic

988
00:44:08,990 --> 00:44:06,570
experience that I definitely experienced

989
00:44:11,150 --> 00:44:09,000
the fear that many of them have had and

990
00:44:12,740 --> 00:44:11,160
I can't even imagine how much more

991
00:44:15,290 --> 00:44:12,750
multiplied it was for them than it was

992
00:44:18,110 --> 00:44:15,300
for me that night and that's kind of

993
00:44:20,050 --> 00:44:18,120
interesting because whatever it was it

994
00:44:23,600 --> 00:44:20,060
wanted to get your attention yes

995
00:44:24,950 --> 00:44:23,610
absolutely we're going down the rabbit

996
00:44:26,090 --> 00:44:24,960
hole here a little bit man that's why

997
00:44:29,480 --> 00:44:26,100
you think I've wanted to get your

998
00:44:31,970 --> 00:44:29,490
attention well just speculate a little

999
00:44:33,950 --> 00:44:31,980
bit you know III understand that you

1000
00:44:36,500 --> 00:44:33,960
know we can't possibly understand what

1001
00:44:39,560 --> 00:44:36,510
you know these things are but if you had

1002
00:44:41,780 --> 00:44:39,570
to speculate a little yep absolutely man

1003
00:44:43,400 --> 00:44:41,790
I mean I won't go through the whole case

1004
00:44:45,950 --> 00:44:43,410
but there's another case of a dude who

1005
00:44:48,400 --> 00:44:45,960
saw a black triangle over a drive-in

1006
00:44:51,080 --> 00:44:48,410
movie theater shut down all the power

1007
00:44:53,180 --> 00:44:51,090
hundreds of people saw this and then

1008
00:44:56,480 --> 00:44:53,190
disappeared and no one remembered it

1009
00:45:01,340 --> 00:44:56,490
happening they didn't react to it so

1010
00:45:03,230 --> 00:45:01,350
what I think these intelligence or these

1011
00:45:06,110 --> 00:45:03,240
UFOs want from us

1012
00:45:08,030 --> 00:45:06,120
is a reaction of some sort some of them

1013
00:45:11,180 --> 00:45:08,040
are begging to be seen look at Phoenix

1014
00:45:14,150 --> 00:45:11,190
lights look at the O'Hare Airport case

1015
00:45:17,330 --> 00:45:14,160
look at what to happen in Texas at one

1016
00:45:20,300 --> 00:45:17,340
point I mean they want to be seen some

1017
00:45:23,750 --> 00:45:20,310
of these things want to be seen so I do

1018
00:45:27,050 --> 00:45:23,760
wonder is it to gauge our reaction to

1019
00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:27,060
them is this sort of a buffer in to okay

1020
00:45:31,550 --> 00:45:29,850
let's give them a little bit let's hang

1021
00:45:33,830 --> 00:45:31,560
that carrot out there see what they do

1022
00:45:36,530 --> 00:45:33,840
if you look at like the Battle of Los

1023
00:45:38,660 --> 00:45:36,540
Angeles you they see something they fire

1024
00:45:40,670 --> 00:45:38,670
at it they try to take it down and

1025
00:45:43,730 --> 00:45:40,680
destroy it up okay we're gonna leave for

1026
00:45:46,700 --> 00:45:43,740
a little bit we'll come back in 47

1027
00:45:50,450 --> 00:45:46,710
you know and show ourselves in

1028
00:45:52,640 --> 00:45:50,460
Washington to Kenneth Arnold but let's

1029
00:45:55,670 --> 00:45:52,650
let's chill for a little bit and then

1030
00:45:58,370 --> 00:45:55,680
come back so you do have to wonder you

1031
00:46:02,630 --> 00:45:58,380
know is it to gauge a reaction is it to

1032
00:46:04,190 --> 00:46:02,640
see how we interpret what they are look

1033
00:46:06,620 --> 00:46:04,200
at like someone who has an experience

1034
00:46:08,839 --> 00:46:06,630
and they say it's a religious experience

1035
00:46:11,230 --> 00:46:08,849
look at you know going back all the way

1036
00:46:13,609 --> 00:46:11,240
to what valet said and what many other

1037
00:46:18,579 --> 00:46:13,619
sociologists and psychologists have said

1038
00:46:21,109 --> 00:46:18,589
is this like sort of is the UFO

1039
00:46:25,490 --> 00:46:21,119
reminiscent of our anxieties here on

1040
00:46:28,670 --> 00:46:25,500
earth I think it's a huge experiment by

1041
00:46:29,900 --> 00:46:28,680
many different controllers and I think

1042
00:46:33,349 --> 00:46:29,910
they just want to see what the hell we

1043
00:46:38,510 --> 00:46:33,359
do with it is it to have a UFO podcast

1044
00:46:40,549 --> 00:46:38,520
is it - is it to become an artist and

1045
00:46:42,980 --> 00:46:40,559
convey your experience through that is

1046
00:46:46,640 --> 00:46:42,990
it to become a musician and sing about

1047
00:46:50,120 --> 00:46:46,650
UFOs I don't know is it to become a

1048
00:46:52,069 --> 00:46:50,130
teacher and talk about you know God

1049
00:46:54,500 --> 00:46:52,079
knows what I don't know man I don't know

1050
00:46:56,870 --> 00:46:54,510
but I think whatever it is it wants to

1051
00:46:58,490 --> 00:46:56,880
be seen on many of these occasions and

1052
00:47:00,559 --> 00:46:58,500
it wants to see what the hell we do with

1053
00:47:03,579 --> 00:47:00,569
that and I think that's really cool it's

1054
00:47:06,349 --> 00:47:03,589
like the biggest art project of all time

1055
00:47:09,470 --> 00:47:06,359
then it's a fascinating way to look at

1056
00:47:13,490 --> 00:47:09,480
that man damn you're like changing my

1057
00:47:15,950 --> 00:47:13,500
perspective here and I can't pretend

1058
00:47:17,539 --> 00:47:15,960
that that's like my idea you know you

1059
00:47:20,210 --> 00:47:17,549
look at someone like Greg Bishop who

1060
00:47:22,039 --> 00:47:20,220
who's looking at the whole co-creation

1061
00:47:23,420 --> 00:47:22,049
phenomenon that maybe we have a lot more

1062
00:47:25,520 --> 00:47:23,430
to do with this than we think

1063
00:47:28,190 --> 00:47:25,530
so we working in tandem with the

1064
00:47:30,829 --> 00:47:28,200
phenomenon to create it are we a

1065
00:47:33,099 --> 00:47:30,839
phenomenon to them it's it's fascinating

1066
00:47:36,589 --> 00:47:33,109
like you said it's a rabbit hole and

1067
00:47:38,270 --> 00:47:36,599
again I I didn't create these ideas or

1068
00:47:39,710 --> 00:47:38,280
theories I'm just kind of running with

1069
00:47:41,630 --> 00:47:39,720
them and trying to look at it in

1070
00:47:44,089 --> 00:47:41,640
different ways and I think that's what

1071
00:47:46,490 --> 00:47:44,099
you got to do you know physical data

1072
00:47:48,559 --> 00:47:46,500
nuts and bolts hasn't done for us

1073
00:47:53,150 --> 00:47:48,569
so let's kind of look at it other ways

1074
00:47:55,670 --> 00:47:53,160
and let's get weird and crazy absolutely

1075
00:48:01,100 --> 00:47:55,680
man I'm totally down for that

1076
00:48:02,690 --> 00:48:01,110
so science hasn't totally embraced this

1077
00:48:05,420 --> 00:48:02,700
phenomenon like they haven't other

1078
00:48:09,860 --> 00:48:05,430
phenomenons in the book in Chapter six

1079
00:48:12,860 --> 00:48:09,870
you talk with many scientists about UFOs

1080
00:48:15,020 --> 00:48:12,870
and and how we can bring a scientific

1081
00:48:18,050 --> 00:48:15,030
approach to it what do you think the

1082
00:48:20,660 --> 00:48:18,060
best approach to this is in terms of

1083
00:48:23,420 --> 00:48:20,670
science a multidisciplinary kind of

1084
00:48:27,620 --> 00:48:23,430
study or is this something purely the

1085
00:48:30,290 --> 00:48:27,630
social sciences have a leg up in what do

1086
00:48:31,940 --> 00:48:30,300
you think on that that's a really good

1087
00:48:34,970 --> 00:48:31,950
question man and I can't pretend to have

1088
00:48:37,550 --> 00:48:34,980
like one answer but you know you've

1089
00:48:40,220 --> 00:48:37,560
spoken to Chris Cogswell and his

1090
00:48:42,500 --> 00:48:40,230
approach being a scientist was to look

1091
00:48:44,240 --> 00:48:42,510
at it both from a hard science

1092
00:48:47,180 --> 00:48:44,250
standpoint and a soft science standpoint

1093
00:48:49,100 --> 00:48:47,190
and again I think that's great there's

1094
00:48:52,910 --> 00:48:49,110
room for everyone in this there really

1095
00:48:55,370 --> 00:48:52,920
is I mean UFOs their astronomy their

1096
00:48:57,590 --> 00:48:55,380
psychology their there are everything in

1097
00:49:00,380 --> 00:48:57,600
between their chemistry there are social

1098
00:49:03,380 --> 00:49:00,390
sciences it's crazy we can connect the

1099
00:49:05,150 --> 00:49:03,390
UFO phenomenon to any of this in terms

1100
00:49:08,330 --> 00:49:05,160
of if we're looking at it from kind of a

1101
00:49:10,010 --> 00:49:08,340
nuts-and-bolts data-driven phenomenon I

1102
00:49:11,450 --> 00:49:10,020
think some of the people I interviewed

1103
00:49:16,570 --> 00:49:11,460
in the book are a really good way to go

1104
00:49:19,400 --> 00:49:16,580
with that UFO data CubeSat you've got

1105
00:49:22,250 --> 00:49:19,410
Trumbull who's trying to put you know

1106
00:49:25,070 --> 00:49:22,260
Humvees on the ground to be a rapid

1107
00:49:29,030 --> 00:49:25,080
response mechanism to go out and record

1108
00:49:31,270 --> 00:49:29,040
a UFO event that's so incredibly cool to

1109
00:49:33,590 --> 00:49:31,280
me I mean you know you know that that's

1110
00:49:36,020 --> 00:49:33,600
awesome and I think that I think that

1111
00:49:39,130 --> 00:49:36,030
works in tandem with these other people

1112
00:49:41,900 --> 00:49:39,140
looking at it from a more heady space so

1113
00:49:43,880 --> 00:49:41,910
what approach scientifically we can take

1114
00:49:46,160 --> 00:49:43,890
to it I think we're there I think we

1115
00:49:49,070 --> 00:49:46,170
have really cool innovators out there

1116
00:49:52,310 --> 00:49:49,080
trying to record data trying to capture

1117
00:49:53,750 --> 00:49:52,320
photos and radar and everything in

1118
00:49:58,880 --> 00:49:53,760
between when it comes to the phenomenon

1119
00:50:00,680 --> 00:49:58,890
but I think this is sobering to say I

1120
00:50:02,810 --> 00:50:00,690
think the phenomenon is always going to

1121
00:50:06,980 --> 00:50:02,820
be ahead a step ahead of our technology

1122
00:50:08,060 --> 00:50:06,990
and our science and we're never truly

1123
00:50:09,319 --> 00:50:08,070
gonna get there

1124
00:50:11,299 --> 00:50:09,329
maybe May

1125
00:50:13,819 --> 00:50:11,309
be someday we'll hit that precipice with

1126
00:50:16,759 --> 00:50:13,829
our soft sciences and our hard sciences

1127
00:50:18,650 --> 00:50:16,769
can come together and be like boom UFO

1128
00:50:21,920 --> 00:50:18,660
mystery solved let's go do something

1129
00:50:24,049 --> 00:50:21,930
else now but I don't know man I don't

1130
00:50:26,660 --> 00:50:24,059
know I think it's all exciting I think

1131
00:50:28,099 --> 00:50:26,670
we can all work together I think we got

1132
00:50:30,499 --> 00:50:28,109
to stop scoffing at one another for

1133
00:50:32,449 --> 00:50:30,509
you're a little too new agey you're a

1134
00:50:34,789 --> 00:50:32,459
little too cerebral you're a little too

1135
00:50:36,799 --> 00:50:34,799
science-based and let's just all share

1136
00:50:38,390 --> 00:50:36,809
information and be like oh that's cool

1137
00:50:40,430 --> 00:50:38,400
let me see if I could put that into this

1138
00:50:43,420 --> 00:50:40,440
and I think that's what it's all about

1139
00:50:46,999 --> 00:50:43,430
putting the puzzle together yeah

1140
00:50:50,509 --> 00:50:47,009
definitely an open an open minded

1141
00:50:53,209 --> 00:50:50,519
approach like I think in this age that

1142
00:50:54,829 --> 00:50:53,219
when we hear the term skeptic it's

1143
00:50:59,089 --> 00:50:54,839
always meant to be

1144
00:51:03,140 --> 00:50:59,099
as this blocker from accepting what is

1145
00:51:06,650 --> 00:51:03,150
actually out there or isn't and I think

1146
00:51:09,890 --> 00:51:06,660
part of it is is definitely an image

1147
00:51:12,769 --> 00:51:09,900
issue that we're still kind of trying to

1148
00:51:15,170 --> 00:51:12,779
work through and at times there are

1149
00:51:18,349 --> 00:51:15,180
people that are trying to control the

1150
00:51:21,620 --> 00:51:18,359
perception and and like to go back to

1151
00:51:24,920 --> 00:51:21,630
the stars when you know you have an

1152
00:51:27,559 --> 00:51:24,930
article saying that you have a metal

1153
00:51:30,920 --> 00:51:27,569
alloy that you're claiming is from a UFO

1154
00:51:34,699 --> 00:51:30,930
it's suddenly now a physical phenomenon

1155
00:51:37,910 --> 00:51:34,709
and it seems like it's more complex than

1156
00:51:40,910 --> 00:51:37,920
than that so I definitely agree with you

1157
00:51:43,880 --> 00:51:40,920
I definitely agree that we need a very

1158
00:51:46,279 --> 00:51:43,890
open-minded approach to this to fully

1159
00:51:48,739 --> 00:51:46,289
gauge exactly what's going on because

1160
00:51:51,499 --> 00:51:48,749
it's not as simple as a nuts and bolts

1161
00:51:54,049 --> 00:51:51,509
kind of thing exactly and even with the

1162
00:51:56,689 --> 00:51:54,059
whole Pentagon UFO program and to the

1163
00:52:00,529 --> 00:51:56,699
stars like yeah we're getting physical

1164
00:52:02,420 --> 00:52:00,539
data and imagery and videos but we know

1165
00:52:05,269 --> 00:52:02,430
full well that the program looked at

1166
00:52:06,739 --> 00:52:05,279
much weirder things than just that and

1167
00:52:08,839 --> 00:52:06,749
we're gonna be seeing a lot more of that

1168
00:52:12,229 --> 00:52:08,849
coming forward with skinwalker ranch and

1169
00:52:15,349 --> 00:52:12,239
whatnot too so it's a can dude like I

1170
00:52:18,319 --> 00:52:15,359
don't think there's one way to look at

1171
00:52:22,430 --> 00:52:18,329
this and I applaud to the stars in many

1172
00:52:23,180 --> 00:52:22,440
ways and I I turned my I turned my nose

1173
00:52:27,530 --> 00:52:23,190
up at them and

1174
00:52:29,180 --> 00:52:27,540
there's but but you know use its of

1175
00:52:32,540 --> 00:52:29,190
Shakespearean language there as a

1176
00:52:34,190 --> 00:52:32,550
theater nerd yeah yeah Haider I don't

1177
00:52:38,800 --> 00:52:34,200
know but I know that we can all work

1178
00:52:41,809 --> 00:52:38,810
together and and that's exciting so

1179
00:52:43,490 --> 00:52:41,819
shifting again here if somebody's coming

1180
00:52:46,069 --> 00:52:43,500
up to you and they're a skeptic of the

1181
00:52:48,650 --> 00:52:46,079
UFO phenomenon or if somebody's like I'm

1182
00:52:50,960 --> 00:52:48,660
kind of interested what cases would you

1183
00:52:52,280 --> 00:52:50,970
point them to to kind of wet the whistle

1184
00:52:55,130 --> 00:52:52,290
and say you know there might be

1185
00:52:56,270 --> 00:52:55,140
something here I've got two for ya if

1186
00:52:58,700 --> 00:52:56,280
you're down for it

1187
00:53:01,370 --> 00:52:58,710
yeah don't go ahead man cool so yeah I

1188
00:53:03,400 --> 00:53:01,380
mean I I often veer towards pilot

1189
00:53:06,280 --> 00:53:03,410
witness cases because there's usually

1190
00:53:08,359 --> 00:53:06,290
like we said earlier the most data

1191
00:53:09,920 --> 00:53:08,369
documentation and I do think those

1192
00:53:12,770 --> 00:53:09,930
things are important not the approach

1193
00:53:14,660 --> 00:53:12,780
I'm really taken right now but um you

1194
00:53:17,930 --> 00:53:14,670
know there's the Japan Airlines case of

1195
00:53:19,870 --> 00:53:17,940
87 that's a good one you recently spoke

1196
00:53:23,390 --> 00:53:19,880
about the Thomas Mantell case which is

1197
00:53:26,270 --> 00:53:23,400
awesome you covered it so well but I'd

1198
00:53:28,670 --> 00:53:26,280
I'd have to say I do have two favorite

1199
00:53:32,240 --> 00:53:28,680
pilot cases that still give me chills

1200
00:53:34,849 --> 00:53:32,250
the first one was the the Carlos de

1201
00:53:39,230 --> 00:53:34,859
Santos case of 75 do you know about this

1202
00:53:41,000 --> 00:53:39,240
one no I don't this this one is great I

1203
00:53:42,740 --> 00:53:41,010
covered this on Episode five of

1204
00:53:46,670 --> 00:53:42,750
somewhere in the skies really early on

1205
00:53:49,370 --> 00:53:46,680
in my podcasting days and I had Ruben

1206
00:53:52,069 --> 00:53:49,380
Uriarte on who who looks at cases out of

1207
00:53:54,020 --> 00:53:52,079
Mexico out of the southwest and I had

1208
00:53:55,700 --> 00:53:54,030
never heard of this case either and it

1209
00:53:58,130 --> 00:53:55,710
blew me away that I really started

1210
00:54:01,490 --> 00:53:58,140
looking into it so so this happened in

1211
00:54:03,980 --> 00:54:01,500
75 Carlos de Santos was heading back to

1212
00:54:07,339 --> 00:54:03,990
Mexico City he's in a small piper plane

1213
00:54:09,920 --> 00:54:07,349
that he owned and he sees three disc

1214
00:54:12,589 --> 00:54:09,930
shaped objects that begin to follow him

1215
00:54:15,819 --> 00:54:12,599
very reminiscent kind of of Kenneth

1216
00:54:19,460 --> 00:54:15,829
Arnold but much much closer in proximity

1217
00:54:23,059 --> 00:54:19,470
the objects they surround his plane and

1218
00:54:25,510 --> 00:54:23,069
one of the objects hits his fuselage and

1219
00:54:29,809 --> 00:54:25,520
it sends the plane kind of into a

1220
00:54:32,599 --> 00:54:29,819
controlled dive it affected his his

1221
00:54:35,660 --> 00:54:32,609
aircraft so he radios the closest tower

1222
00:54:36,740 --> 00:54:35,670
makes a distress call and this is all

1223
00:54:39,349 --> 00:54:36,750
caught on

1224
00:54:42,230 --> 00:54:39,359
mind you you can listen to this distress

1225
00:54:44,240 --> 00:54:42,240
call it's in episode five is somewhere

1226
00:54:45,650 --> 00:54:44,250
in the skies if again you want to stay

1227
00:54:49,280 --> 00:54:45,660
up a little later at night and have some

1228
00:54:51,230 --> 00:54:49,290
nightmares man just head out so the

1229
00:54:53,210 --> 00:54:51,240
objects you know as he's making this

1230
00:54:55,880 --> 00:54:53,220
call Mayday Mayday I'm out of control

1231
00:54:59,660 --> 00:54:55,890
this is what's happening I'm what's help

1232
00:55:02,050 --> 00:54:59,670
me help me um the objects finally start

1233
00:55:04,819 --> 00:55:02,060
to separate and they head towards a a

1234
00:55:09,730 --> 00:55:04,829
volcano of all things a mountainous

1235
00:55:13,970 --> 00:55:09,740
volcano in the distance and disappear so

1236
00:55:16,130 --> 00:55:13,980
santos lands and reports what had

1237
00:55:19,970 --> 00:55:16,140
happened so immediately he's put under

1238
00:55:22,370 --> 00:55:19,980
such psychiatric watch right oh my god

1239
00:55:25,400 --> 00:55:22,380
but dude he comes out on the other side

1240
00:55:26,809 --> 00:55:25,410
of it completely like okay they're like

1241
00:55:28,940 --> 00:55:26,819
oh he's fine

1242
00:55:32,150 --> 00:55:28,950
what he says he saw we generally think

1243
00:55:34,609 --> 00:55:32,160
he saw and he's okay and what was also

1244
00:55:37,460 --> 00:55:34,619
really interesting is uh you know

1245
00:55:39,109 --> 00:55:37,470
sometime later the radar operators at

1246
00:55:42,710 --> 00:55:39,119
the tower that he made the distress call

1247
00:55:45,440 --> 00:55:42,720
at they both swore under oath that they

1248
00:55:47,990 --> 00:55:45,450
saw the objects surround his aircraft

1249
00:55:51,440 --> 00:55:48,000
and then disappear and that they were

1250
00:55:53,829 --> 00:55:51,450
captured on radar so this is an

1251
00:55:57,980 --> 00:55:53,839
extremely well documented case

1252
00:55:59,839 --> 00:55:57,990
corroborated and I I love it I love it

1253
00:56:03,140 --> 00:55:59,849
Santos still talks about it up until

1254
00:56:06,050 --> 00:56:03,150
today and hasn't changed his story one

1255
00:56:08,599 --> 00:56:06,060
bit so that was a really interesting one

1256
00:56:10,609 --> 00:56:08,609
and I would say the other one would have

1257
00:56:12,020 --> 00:56:10,619
to be the Tehran case which I could

1258
00:56:13,339 --> 00:56:12,030
definitely run through if you want but

1259
00:56:15,680 --> 00:56:13,349
if your listeners know it well enough

1260
00:56:17,480 --> 00:56:15,690
that one's amazing as well now

1261
00:56:19,190 --> 00:56:17,490
definitely man run run right through it

1262
00:56:22,490 --> 00:56:19,200
for us oh sure I'll try to do the the

1263
00:56:25,670 --> 00:56:22,500
express route on its this happened a

1264
00:56:28,160 --> 00:56:25,680
year later this was 76 you know I

1265
00:56:30,200 --> 00:56:28,170
actually got off my lazy ass and made a

1266
00:56:32,450 --> 00:56:30,210
Freedom of Information Act request for

1267
00:56:34,670 --> 00:56:32,460
this one and I did I got some

1268
00:56:36,620 --> 00:56:34,680
documentation on it thanks to my friend

1269
00:56:38,690 --> 00:56:36,630
John Greenwald he told me over at the

1270
00:56:41,569 --> 00:56:38,700
black vault only how to properly do this

1271
00:56:43,550 --> 00:56:41,579
so that I could actually get stuff and

1272
00:56:45,260 --> 00:56:43,560
the reason there was documentation is

1273
00:56:49,240 --> 00:56:45,270
because the US military was involved

1274
00:56:50,480 --> 00:56:49,250
with this case I'll get into that they I

1275
00:56:53,540 --> 00:56:50,490
got

1276
00:56:56,930 --> 00:56:53,550
and what what it sort of told me was

1277
00:56:59,150 --> 00:56:56,940
that in 76 the Iranian Air Force stayed

1278
00:57:01,220 --> 00:56:59,160
they've gotten reports of a huge

1279
00:57:03,650 --> 00:57:01,230
luminous object over the city

1280
00:57:05,870 --> 00:57:03,660
kind of like the Battle of LA and they

1281
00:57:07,510 --> 00:57:05,880
they had to go investigate it you know

1282
00:57:10,100 --> 00:57:07,520
this thing was over the entire city

1283
00:57:12,080 --> 00:57:10,110
hundreds of reports coming in so they

1284
00:57:15,620 --> 00:57:12,090
send up a fighter jet to investigate and

1285
00:57:18,440 --> 00:57:15,630
as the first jet starts to get close to

1286
00:57:20,180 --> 00:57:18,450
whatever this lighted object is all of

1287
00:57:22,580 --> 00:57:20,190
its instruments and equipment start to

1288
00:57:25,070 --> 00:57:22,590
malfunction pilot kind of freaks out

1289
00:57:29,510 --> 00:57:25,080
he's like oh he starts heading back

1290
00:57:31,790 --> 00:57:29,520
to to the base and this time Parviz

1291
00:57:33,560 --> 00:57:31,800
Jafari he is the general at the base

1292
00:57:35,240 --> 00:57:33,570
he's like imma take care of this I'm

1293
00:57:38,690 --> 00:57:35,250
gonna go up there and investigate and

1294
00:57:41,540 --> 00:57:38,700
see what the heck's going on so he goes

1295
00:57:43,340 --> 00:57:41,550
up there and he gets even closer to what

1296
00:57:45,940 --> 00:57:43,350
this thing is and he actually sees what

1297
00:57:49,400 --> 00:57:45,950
it is and he reported seeing a

1298
00:57:53,120 --> 00:57:49,410
multicolored diamond-shaped object and

1299
00:57:55,580 --> 00:57:53,130
it was huge like jumbo jet sized huge

1300
00:57:57,830 --> 00:57:55,590
and he starts to move a little bit

1301
00:58:01,130 --> 00:57:57,840
closer tries to make contact with it

1302
00:58:03,080 --> 00:58:01,140
he's getting nothing and then out of

1303
00:58:06,109 --> 00:58:03,090
this massive object another smaller

1304
00:58:09,859 --> 00:58:06,119
object descends and starts to head

1305
00:58:10,760 --> 00:58:09,869
towards Jafari so what's going on with

1306
00:58:13,520 --> 00:58:10,770
this Jafari

1307
00:58:16,580 --> 00:58:13,530
he he starts to try to lock in on the

1308
00:58:19,640 --> 00:58:16,590
object like dude what are you doing his

1309
00:58:22,280 --> 00:58:19,650
weaponry his instruments they start to

1310
00:58:24,170 --> 00:58:22,290
malfunction and he can't use them and

1311
00:58:28,190 --> 00:58:24,180
the things starting to move towards him

1312
00:58:30,920 --> 00:58:28,200
so he he makes a u-turn and goes into

1313
00:58:33,050 --> 00:58:30,930
defense mode and starts a negative G

1314
00:58:35,780 --> 00:58:33,060
dive to try to try to outmaneuver this

1315
00:58:39,470 --> 00:58:35,790
thing he's having a cat-and-mouse game

1316
00:58:42,740 --> 00:58:39,480
with a UFO in midair dude this this just

1317
00:58:45,560 --> 00:58:42,750
kinda blew my mind and whatever the

1318
00:58:48,080 --> 00:58:45,570
object is it gets a lock on him and he

1319
00:58:50,750 --> 00:58:48,090
freaks out he's able to make another

1320
00:58:53,750 --> 00:58:50,760
negative nosedive negative G nosedive

1321
00:58:55,550 --> 00:58:53,760
and outmaneuvers it again and gets a

1322
00:58:58,460 --> 00:58:55,560
lock on the object but right when he

1323
00:59:01,460 --> 00:58:58,470
does the object disappears out of sight

1324
00:59:03,830 --> 00:59:01,470
and he hears this loud explosion like it

1325
00:59:06,650 --> 00:59:03,840
had crash-landed or something

1326
00:59:09,800 --> 00:59:06,660
so if that was not traumatic enough he

1327
00:59:12,380 --> 00:59:09,810
goes back to base he reports what had

1328
00:59:15,110 --> 00:59:12,390
happened and the next morning he and a

1329
00:59:17,300 --> 00:59:15,120
bunch of the Iranian military go out to

1330
00:59:19,550 --> 00:59:17,310
where supposedly this explosion happened

1331
00:59:22,280 --> 00:59:19,560
and they investigate they start speaking

1332
00:59:24,470 --> 00:59:22,290
to witnesses and nobody saw anything but

1333
00:59:27,290 --> 00:59:24,480
they did hear the explosion nothing was

1334
00:59:30,170 --> 00:59:27,300
ever found no object nothing like that

1335
00:59:34,910 --> 00:59:30,180
but what I found most interesting was

1336
00:59:38,390 --> 00:59:34,920
that apparently the DIA the NSA and the

1337
00:59:40,910 --> 00:59:38,400
CIA in America they all got involved

1338
00:59:43,430 --> 00:59:40,920
because our jets were being leased to

1339
00:59:45,170 --> 00:59:43,440
the Iranian Air Force at this time you

1340
00:59:47,120 --> 00:59:45,180
know they wanted to know what the hell

1341
00:59:51,260 --> 00:59:47,130
this thing was that was out maneuvering

1342
00:59:54,080 --> 00:59:51,270
our technology so there's a bunch of

1343
00:59:57,890 --> 00:59:54,090
documentation from these intelligence

1344
00:59:59,570 --> 00:59:57,900
agencies about this event and jafari he

1345
01:00:02,690 --> 00:59:59,580
spoke about this entire thing at the

1346
01:00:05,090 --> 01:00:02,700
National Press Club in 2007 and he's

1347
01:00:08,300 --> 01:00:05,100
very outspoken about it he's he spoke

1348
01:00:10,640 --> 01:00:08,310
about it up until his unfortunate

1349
01:00:13,970 --> 01:00:10,650
passing not too long ago maybe a few

1350
01:00:16,100 --> 01:00:13,980
months ago even so oh god these two

1351
01:00:19,580 --> 01:00:16,110
cases these are the ones I would tell

1352
01:00:22,220 --> 01:00:19,590
any amateur UFO researcher and anyone

1353
01:00:25,210 --> 01:00:22,230
just interested to look into in terms of

1354
01:00:27,740 --> 01:00:25,220
documentation radar pilots and

1355
01:00:29,680 --> 01:00:27,750
legitimacy for sure so I hope that

1356
01:00:33,170 --> 01:00:29,690
serves some purpose to your listeners

1357
01:00:35,900 --> 01:00:33,180
I'm sure it will man absolutely kind of

1358
01:00:39,380 --> 01:00:35,910
pivoting a little bit here if you had to

1359
01:00:41,060 --> 01:00:39,390
direct these people to maybe a book or

1360
01:00:45,280 --> 01:00:41,070
two what books would you recommend for

1361
01:00:49,520 --> 01:00:45,290
them so I know Jafar e's entire event is

1362
01:00:52,100 --> 01:00:49,530
logged in Leslie Kings book UFOs that is

1363
01:00:54,710 --> 01:00:52,110
definitely one I recommend everyone go

1364
01:00:57,650 --> 01:00:54,720
look at if you're looking for government

1365
01:01:00,350 --> 01:00:57,660
military and pilot accounts of UFOs

1366
01:01:02,990 --> 01:01:00,360
again some of the most documented cases

1367
01:01:05,090 --> 01:01:03,000
out there she has them tell all their

1368
01:01:08,090 --> 01:01:05,100
stories in their own words that is

1369
01:01:11,780 --> 01:01:08,100
probably one of the top ones I would say

1370
01:01:13,190 --> 01:01:11,790
also anything by Jacques Vallee someone

1371
01:01:16,529 --> 01:01:13,200
who looked at the phenomenon quite

1372
01:01:19,789 --> 01:01:16,539
differently looked at it from a very

1373
01:01:22,429 --> 01:01:19,799
t'rul stance psychological stance and

1374
01:01:25,199 --> 01:01:22,439
it's just an all-around amazing

1375
01:01:26,489 --> 01:01:25,209
individual and again if you're looking

1376
01:01:30,809 --> 01:01:26,499
for more of a scientific approach

1377
01:01:34,739 --> 01:01:30,819
anything by our UFO dad mr. Hynek is the

1378
01:01:37,799 --> 01:01:34,749
way to go definitely the way to go but

1379
01:01:41,279 --> 01:01:37,809
yeah there's many ways to go in terms of

1380
01:01:43,049 --> 01:01:41,289
UFO books and documentaries but I think

1381
01:01:45,630 --> 01:01:43,059
a lot of the work being done by Jeremy

1382
01:01:47,039 --> 01:01:45,640
Korbel in the film industry on UFOs is

1383
01:01:52,019 --> 01:01:47,049
pretty awesome

1384
01:01:53,549 --> 01:01:52,029
and anything by Hynek by valet and some

1385
01:01:56,939 --> 01:01:53,559
of the younger people out there Jason

1386
01:02:00,419 --> 01:01:56,949
McClellan of rogue planet has a really

1387
01:02:02,729 --> 01:02:00,429
good book called you I forget the exact

1388
01:02:06,539 --> 01:02:02,739
title but it's like only weirdos see

1389
01:02:08,849 --> 01:02:06,549
UFOs which kind of sheds the ridicule

1390
01:02:11,069 --> 01:02:08,859
factor it's not true that only weirdos

1391
01:02:13,109 --> 01:02:11,079
see UFOs so that's a good primer for

1392
01:02:15,839 --> 01:02:13,119
anyone looking to to look at some of the

1393
01:02:18,209 --> 01:02:15,849
cases and to see what's out there in UFO

1394
01:02:20,669 --> 01:02:18,219
history and really get you into a good

1395
01:02:24,120 --> 01:02:20,679
headspace to start looking at this crazy

1396
01:02:26,279 --> 01:02:24,130
stuff we do yeah absolutely and one that

1397
01:02:28,890 --> 01:02:26,289
I'm definitely gonna keep on people's

1398
01:02:31,409 --> 01:02:28,900
radars is the one that it's not out yet

1399
01:02:34,140 --> 01:02:31,419
but the the one that MJ bone is is

1400
01:02:36,149 --> 01:02:34,150
working on definitely seems it's gonna

1401
01:02:37,739 --> 01:02:36,159
be fascinating for sure it's gonna be

1402
01:02:38,189 --> 01:02:37,749
unlike anything I think we've seen

1403
01:02:40,829 --> 01:02:38,199
before

1404
01:02:42,929 --> 01:02:40,839
again MJ is a philosophical person and

1405
01:02:44,689 --> 01:02:42,939
he's really looking at the culture of

1406
01:02:47,549 --> 01:02:44,699
ufology which i think is very

1407
01:02:50,640 --> 01:02:47,559
fascinating and says a lot about it and

1408
01:02:52,829 --> 01:02:50,650
I think influences the phenomenon itself

1409
01:02:55,769 --> 01:02:52,839
so I can't wait to see what he comes up

1410
01:02:57,630 --> 01:02:55,779
with yeah when in the pre-order link

1411
01:03:04,199 --> 01:02:57,640
comes up I'm there I'm totally there

1412
01:03:06,299 --> 01:03:04,209
one-click amazon done absolutely so from

1413
01:03:10,409 --> 01:03:06,309
your book somewhere in the skies comes

1414
01:03:13,169 --> 01:03:10,419
the somewhere in the skies podcast how

1415
01:03:16,649 --> 01:03:13,179
did that come about what inspired you to

1416
01:03:19,739 --> 01:03:16,659
get in the podcasting game I had been

1417
01:03:22,019 --> 01:03:19,749
listening to podcasts for so long Jim

1418
01:03:24,390 --> 01:03:22,029
Harold's paranormal podcast was my first

1419
01:03:27,089 --> 01:03:24,400
endeavor into that world I've been

1420
01:03:29,300 --> 01:03:27,099
listening ever since and I love it man I

1421
01:03:33,650 --> 01:03:29,310
think it's a medium that is

1422
01:03:37,610 --> 01:03:33,660
is really booming and is the future of

1423
01:03:39,710 --> 01:03:37,620
both journalism of radio of broadcasting

1424
01:03:41,180 --> 01:03:39,720
and anyone can do it look at how many

1425
01:03:42,640 --> 01:03:41,190
podcasts there are out there it's

1426
01:03:45,170 --> 01:03:42,650
ridiculous you could find one on

1427
01:03:49,460 --> 01:03:45,180
anything anything you can possibly think

1428
01:03:52,700 --> 01:03:49,470
of there's a podcast about and I I got

1429
01:03:55,370 --> 01:03:52,710
involved by co-hosting another show into

1430
01:03:58,130 --> 01:03:55,380
the fray radio with Shannon la grow and

1431
01:04:01,670 --> 01:03:58,140
that was a dive into Worlds I never been

1432
01:04:03,710 --> 01:04:01,680
in cryptids ghosts paranormal and I I

1433
01:04:05,930 --> 01:04:03,720
approached Shannon and I was like I love

1434
01:04:08,870 --> 01:04:05,940
the work you did with Sasquatch

1435
01:04:10,610 --> 01:04:08,880
Chronicles and looking into Bigfoot and

1436
01:04:12,860 --> 01:04:10,620
stuff that's something I don't know much

1437
01:04:15,770 --> 01:04:12,870
about I want to know more like I'd love

1438
01:04:18,710 --> 01:04:15,780
to like maybe hash it out with you and

1439
01:04:20,240 --> 01:04:18,720
if you ever want any info on UFOs I'd

1440
01:04:22,430 --> 01:04:20,250
love to share that with you and she said

1441
01:04:23,990 --> 01:04:22,440
why don't you come on why don't we like

1442
01:04:25,760 --> 01:04:24,000
do this together and learn from each

1443
01:04:27,860 --> 01:04:25,770
other I'll learn about UFOs you can

1444
01:04:31,130 --> 01:04:27,870
learn about cryptids so I did that for

1445
01:04:34,010 --> 01:04:31,140
over 50 episodes or so of into the fray

1446
01:04:36,080 --> 01:04:34,020
radio and the more and more I did it the

1447
01:04:37,610 --> 01:04:36,090
more and more I enjoyed the process of

1448
01:04:40,430 --> 01:04:37,620
interviewing people of doing the

1449
01:04:42,050 --> 01:04:40,440
research and getting it out on a

1450
01:04:44,030 --> 01:04:42,060
platform that I'd never really thought

1451
01:04:46,640 --> 01:04:44,040
of and that was you know over the

1452
01:04:49,700 --> 01:04:46,650
Internet to podcasting so I took the

1453
01:04:53,420 --> 01:04:49,710
leap and I I wanted to do one just on

1454
01:04:55,790 --> 01:04:53,430
UFOs my bag my specialty and that's when

1455
01:04:58,340 --> 01:04:55,800
the idea of continuing somewhere in the

1456
01:05:01,340 --> 01:04:58,350
skies the book in podcast form and and

1457
01:05:06,080 --> 01:05:01,350
do the show man and I had no idea how it

1458
01:05:08,030 --> 01:05:06,090
was going to go I was terrified and but

1459
01:05:10,820 --> 01:05:08,040
the response has been amazing and you

1460
01:05:13,760 --> 01:05:10,830
know it's growing every week and I've

1461
01:05:14,900 --> 01:05:13,770
made so much so many contacts and

1462
01:05:16,790 --> 01:05:14,910
incredible friends and colleagues

1463
01:05:19,580 --> 01:05:16,800
through that including yourself and

1464
01:05:21,410 --> 01:05:19,590
we're kind of you know were we're all

1465
01:05:24,290 --> 01:05:21,420
there for one another all the podcasts

1466
01:05:27,500 --> 01:05:24,300
it's a family it's a community and a

1467
01:05:29,510 --> 01:05:27,510
community I love and that supports one

1468
01:05:31,730 --> 01:05:29,520
another the UFO field is very divisive

1469
01:05:34,570 --> 01:05:31,740
the paranormal field could be often very

1470
01:05:38,510 --> 01:05:34,580
divisive as well people backbiting and

1471
01:05:40,190 --> 01:05:38,520
arguing I don't find that in the

1472
01:05:42,470 --> 01:05:40,200
podcasting world I'm sure it's out there

1473
01:05:43,220 --> 01:05:42,480
but for you and me man and other

1474
01:05:46,370 --> 01:05:43,230
podcasts

1475
01:05:48,859 --> 01:05:46,380
out there on the UFO topic we're just

1476
01:05:50,270 --> 01:05:48,869
trying to share information and be there

1477
01:05:53,090 --> 01:05:50,280
for one another and I think that's

1478
01:05:55,099 --> 01:05:53,100
what's really cool and I just I look

1479
01:05:57,050 --> 01:05:55,109
forward to what you're doing and where

1480
01:06:01,580 --> 01:05:57,060
somewhere in the sky's goes and how we

1481
01:06:03,920 --> 01:06:01,590
can all work together when I decided a

1482
01:06:07,400 --> 01:06:03,930
I'm gonna do a podcast I'd done podcasts

1483
01:06:09,980 --> 01:06:07,410
okay you do what you're passionate about

1484
01:06:12,740 --> 01:06:09,990
you just bring it to the table and one

1485
01:06:15,740 --> 01:06:12,750
of the most fascinating aspects of doing

1486
01:06:18,470 --> 01:06:15,750
a podcast is how supportive the

1487
01:06:21,200 --> 01:06:18,480
community is how everybody pretty much

1488
01:06:23,900 --> 01:06:21,210
holds each other up and shares all the

1489
01:06:26,870 --> 01:06:23,910
information and and it's definitely been

1490
01:06:29,870 --> 01:06:26,880
one of the best parts of this the whole

1491
01:06:32,270 --> 01:06:29,880
process and you definitely kind of gave

1492
01:06:34,940 --> 01:06:32,280
you that little confidence booster when

1493
01:06:37,400 --> 01:06:34,950
you had me on your show so it's been

1494
01:06:39,260 --> 01:06:37,410
great man you know and then I can't wait

1495
01:06:41,480 --> 01:06:39,270
to see what both of us do down the line

1496
01:06:43,609 --> 01:06:41,490
you know yeah man we're either we're

1497
01:06:49,040 --> 01:06:43,619
either gonna change ufology or we're

1498
01:06:52,250 --> 01:06:49,050
going to become Hermits and and yet our

1499
01:06:55,849 --> 01:06:52,260
tinfoil hats professionally made I don't

1500
01:06:57,670 --> 01:06:55,859
know but I'm ready and I'm so happy to

1501
01:07:00,980 --> 01:06:57,680
have you along on that journey with me

1502
01:07:02,840 --> 01:07:00,990
absolutely man so great to meet all

1503
01:07:06,320 --> 01:07:02,850
these great people including yourself

1504
01:07:09,590 --> 01:07:06,330
and and so many others MJ binaya sand

1505
01:07:14,030 --> 01:07:09,600
Mike Demonte and and so many others yep

1506
01:07:15,920 --> 01:07:14,040
so last question what do you hope that

1507
01:07:20,410 --> 01:07:15,930
people take away from your book the most

1508
01:07:23,630 --> 01:07:20,420
I hope that they they come away

1509
01:07:26,480 --> 01:07:23,640
asking questions of me of the phenomenon

1510
01:07:28,580 --> 01:07:26,490
of the witnesses because again these are

1511
01:07:30,650 --> 01:07:28,590
just stories and I know that I knew that

1512
01:07:32,480 --> 01:07:30,660
full well going into it that people are

1513
01:07:34,580 --> 01:07:32,490
going to they're gonna call me out on

1514
01:07:36,800 --> 01:07:34,590
that like I have no proof that any of

1515
01:07:38,950 --> 01:07:36,810
these stories actually happened I don't

1516
01:07:41,690 --> 01:07:38,960
have physical data I don't have evidence

1517
01:07:43,760 --> 01:07:41,700
these are stories but I can tell you

1518
01:07:46,520 --> 01:07:43,770
right now man I firmly believe that

1519
01:07:48,710 --> 01:07:46,530
everyone in my book is telling me the

1520
01:07:50,750 --> 01:07:48,720
truth that they believe these events

1521
01:07:53,030 --> 01:07:50,760
happen to them whether they happened in

1522
01:07:55,970 --> 01:07:53,040
the reality that we all perceive I don't

1523
01:07:56,870 --> 01:07:55,980
know but I think it's most important

1524
01:07:58,609 --> 01:07:56,880
that we

1525
01:08:00,890 --> 01:07:58,619
each other out because that can be

1526
01:08:04,249 --> 01:08:00,900
closure enough for people who have these

1527
01:08:07,370 --> 01:08:04,259
profound traumatic dramatic emotional

1528
01:08:10,370 --> 01:08:07,380
events happen in their lives and I just

1529
01:08:12,380 --> 01:08:10,380
hope that even one person who reads the

1530
01:08:14,150 --> 01:08:12,390
book who may have had an experience and

1531
01:08:17,149 --> 01:08:14,160
never talked about it can now do that

1532
01:08:19,430 --> 01:08:17,159
with someone and can get their voice out

1533
01:08:21,800 --> 01:08:19,440
there because again that's one more case

1534
01:08:24,559 --> 01:08:21,810
we can be like hey look at this this

1535
01:08:26,780 --> 01:08:24,569
person who had this experience it

1536
01:08:30,260 --> 01:08:26,790
becomes normal and then that's when we

1537
01:08:32,240 --> 01:08:30,270
we keep moving forward getting it out to

1538
01:08:35,479 --> 01:08:32,250
the mainstream and then we can start

1539
01:08:38,570 --> 01:08:35,489
looking at it through many many more

1540
01:08:40,789 --> 01:08:38,580
eyes so yeah just keep focusing under

1541
01:08:42,860 --> 01:08:40,799
the individuals having the experiences

1542
01:08:45,620 --> 01:08:42,870
and I think we're gonna be in a good

1543
01:08:50,479 --> 01:08:45,630
place to move forward as the human race

1544
01:08:53,180 --> 01:08:50,489
i 100% agree man thank you so much for

1545
01:08:55,519 --> 01:08:53,190
coming on the show I appreciate it

1546
01:08:58,700 --> 01:08:55,529
a ton and it's been an honor having you

1547
01:09:01,309 --> 01:08:58,710
here all right that's it for this week's

1548
01:09:03,649 --> 01:09:01,319
UFO happy hour with Rob Kirsten person

1549
01:09:06,950 --> 01:09:03,659
you can follow his show our strange

1550
01:09:09,979 --> 01:09:06,960
skies on Twitter at our Straits cuts

1551
01:09:12,169 --> 01:09:09,989
simple enough and you can follow us on

1552
01:09:15,169 --> 01:09:12,179
twitter at somewhere Scott's and on

1553
01:09:16,399 --> 01:09:15,179
Instagram at summer skies Potter if you

1554
01:09:18,320 --> 01:09:16,409
haven't already please take a few

1555
01:09:20,959 --> 01:09:18,330
moments to rate and review somewhere in

1556
01:09:23,599 --> 01:09:20,969
the skies on Apple pockets or on any of

1557
01:09:25,849 --> 01:09:23,609
your hemorrhoids ratings and reviews and

1558
01:09:28,579 --> 01:09:25,859
subscriptions help gain us visibility

1559
01:09:31,999 --> 01:09:28,589
and find us new listeners thank you in

1560
01:09:34,370 --> 01:09:32,009
advance all past episodes news articles

1561
01:09:36,169 --> 01:09:34,380
and contact information can be found at

1562
01:09:39,410 --> 01:09:36,179
the official website somewhere in the

1563
01:09:43,370 --> 01:09:39,420
sky thank you as always to the e1

1564
01:09:45,829 --> 01:09:43,380
podcast network kgr a radio and local

1565
01:09:47,959 --> 01:09:45,839
planning but especially thank you to you

1566
01:09:50,300 --> 01:09:47,969
for listening I'll see you here next

1567
01:09:50,809 --> 01:09:50,310
week and remember keep your feet on the

1568
01:09:53,329 --> 01:09:50,819
ground

1569
01:10:01,260 --> 01:09:53,339
but never stop searching somewhere in

1570
01:10:34,370 --> 01:10:32,400
[Music]

1571
01:10:36,500 --> 01:10:34,380
[Applause]

1572
01:10:38,240 --> 01:10:36,510
somewhere in the skies is produced by

1573
01:10:40,460 --> 01:10:38,250
Third Kind productions in association

1574
01:10:41,990 --> 01:10:40,470
with the entertainment one podcast